**** NOTICE: We recorded this pod using Zoom audio but had a few technical issues. The audio quality wasn’t great and at some point, Zoom stopped recording all together. We were able to piece together a good episode but not the whole conversation. I’m super bummed, but we all agreed, even if its not the full conversation, it’s still something we wanted to put out there. ****
Systemic racism has its roots in housing. Government policies deliberately disadvantaged Black and Brown people, and that’s led to segregated communities, educational inequalities and a substantial wealth gap. So, what can we do as an industry to address these disparities and better serve ALL of our clients?
On this episode of Industry Relations, Emily Chenevert, CEO of the Austin Board of Realtors, and Kenya Burrell-VanWormer, SVP of Diversity Solutions at T3 Sixty, join Rob and Greg to discuss the history of race discrimination in real estate, explaining how practices like redlining have stunted the Black community’s capacity to build generational wealth and why industry organizations need to recognize and publicly denounce the racism of the past.
Emily and Kenya share how the industry has improved, describing NAR’s shift to prioritize diversity and inclusion and exploring what organized real estate might do to further educate association members around equity moving forward. Listen in for insight on tackling home ownership disparities and learn what is (and what isn’t) our responsibility to do as an industry to address racial inequality in America.
What’s Discussed:
The history of race discrimination in real estate (i.e.: redlining, racist land use patterns)
How racism around housing has stunted the Black community’s ability to build generational wealth
The government’s role in creating a wealth gap in the US
Why organizations like NAREB exist independently from NAR
Greg’s call for industry organizations to recognize and denounce the racism of the past (and what that might look like)
The shift from diversity and inclusion as an afterthought to a need within NAR
How we might educate association members around issues of equity
The lack of diversity among the leadership in real estate associations and MLSs
Why 25 of the 26 agents caught steering on Long Island are still working
Kenya’s insight on tackling home ownership disparity by way of education, opportunity and resources
Emily’s experience with difficult conversations on race as Austin overhauls its land development code
What it’s our responsibility to do as an industry to address racial inequality (and what’s not in our lane)
Connect with Emily:
Connect with Kenya:
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America by Richard Rothstein
How the GI Bill’s Promise Was Denied to a Million Black WWII Veterans’ in History
National Association of Real Estate Brokers
The Chicago Association of Realtors’ Apology & Recommitment to Fair Housing
The Newsday Investigation on Steering
HAR Diversity and Inclusion Task Force
Austin’s Land Development Code Revision
Our Sponsors:
Zillow started out as a listing portal or syndication site. But the company has evolved to become… Well, we’re actually not sure what to call it anymore. Perhaps ‘the Amazon of real estate’ is most appropriate. And on September 23, 2020, the company announced that it’s hiring employee-agents to streamline the iBuyer process. So, if Zillow is a brokerage now, what does that mean for the industry?
On this episode of the podcast, Rob and Greg are discussing Zillow’s decision to take its iBuyer operations in-house and how that move will impact other aspects of organized real estate. Our hosts explore how MLSs might respond to having Zillow as members and describe how access to MLS data could change the consumer experience on the Zillow site.
Rob and Greg go on to consider the impact of Zillow being part of NAR and state and local associations, weighing in on how their participation can be seen as a win for the industry. Listen in for insight on how Zillow’s announcement demonstrates their commitment to becoming an iBuyer-brokerage and learn how Zillow entering the system might lead to an improvement for everyone—or a ‘horror show.’
What’s Discussed:
The evolution of listing portals into brokerage and iBuyer hybrid models
How Rob and Greg define brokerages differently
Zillow’s decision to use employee-agents to bring its iBuyer operations in-house
How MLSs are likely to respond to having Zillow as members
Rob’s theory on how Zillow might reposition its Industry Relations team
The potential impact of Zillow being part of NAR as well as state and local associations
How to access to MLS IDX data and VOW rules could transform the consumer experience on Zillow
The leverage Zillow has in getting information from smaller MLSs
What makes Zillow’s shift a WIN for humans (and organized real estate)
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Opendoor vs. Zillow on Industry Relations EP050
CLAW’s Delay to Syndication Feeds
REALTOR Political Action Committee
NAR’s Rules on Virtual Office Website
The 2008 DOJ-NAR Settlement Agreement
‘It’s a Good Life’ Episode of Twilight Zone
‘A Trifecta! NAR Sued Again Over Buyer-Broker Commissions’ in The Real Deal
Thomas Jefferson’s Quote on Change in Laws and Institutions
Our Sponsors:
Opendoor recently announced a merger with special purpose acquisition company (or SPAC) Social Capital, a venture fund headed by rockstar VC Chamath Palihapitiya. This partnership puts the pioneering iBuyer on the same playing field with Zillow. And the battle between the two will be epic.
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are discussing what the competition between Opendoor and Zillow means for consumers, real estate agents, and the industry in general. Rob explains Zillow’s advantages in terms of customer acquisition and monetizing seller leads, and Greg describes Opendoor’s leverage when it comes to operational excellence (otherwise known as ‘eating BPS for breakfast’).
Rob and Greg go on to consider how Opendoor might catch up with Zillow when it comes to lead flow, either through an additional acquisition or by working with the industry. Listen in for insight around how this battle of the market-makers will make it easier to buy and sell houses and lower transaction costs—and how that will impact the real estate industry as a whole.
What’s Discussed:
The benefits of a merger between Social Capital and Opendoor
What competition between Opendoor and Zillow means for consumers
Zillow’s advantage in terms of consumer audience and monetizing seller leads
Opendoor’s advantage when it comes to operational excellence
Rob’s prediction that Social Capital might also acquire either Redfin or Realtor.com
How Opendoor might work with the industry to generate lead flow
How competition between Opendoor and Zillow is likely to impact real estate as a whole
--Easier to buy and sell houses (mobility)
--Much lower transaction costs
How MLSs might change if transactions double while commissions are cut in half
Greg’s take on why it’s a great time to be a real estate agent
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Resources:
‘Yelp: Nearly 16,000 Restaurants Have Permanently Closed Due to COVID’ in QSR
Opendoor’s Merger with Social Capital
Rob’s 2014 Blog Post on Opendoor
Stratechery’s Interview with Rich Barton
Social Capital’s 2019 Investor Letter
Opendoor’s September 2020 Investor Presentation
Rob’s Thought Experiment on Real Estate Agents & Productivity
The Art of the CMA by Greg Robertson
Our Sponsors:
For every tech platform that sets out to disrupt real estate, there’s a story of slow evolution to working with brokers and agents. And while companies like Zillow, Opendoor, and Offerpad have brought about minor changes to the home buying process, they always end up morphing into our traditional system. Why is it that these so-called disruptors just can’t change the way we do real estate?
In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are exploring why would-be disruptors have such a hard time changing real estate. Greg walks us through his five-stages-of-grief analogy around how tech platforms always end up working with brokers and agents, and Rob compares real estate with the auto industry, reflecting on how little buying processes have changed despite advancements in technology.
Rob and Greg go on to introduce the idea that the human connection is what prevents tech disruptors from succeeding in our industry, speculating that agent teams have been the biggest disruptor in real estate in recent years. Listen in for insight on how human knowledge and connection factor into making tech platforms successful and learn why the human need for approval is not disruptable.
What’s Discussed:
Rob’s take on the two possible reasons why disruptors have trouble in real estate
--System has been perfected over time
--Entrenched infrastructure (need billions to play)
Greg’s five-stages-of-grief analogy re: how disruptors end up working with agents
The similarities and differences between real estate and the auto industry
--Way we buy + sell changed little in spite of technology
--Remember dealership but not broker (agents ≠ employees)
How technology has expanded consumer knowledge around price, inventory, etc.
Greg’s insight that real estate tech disruptors struggle because they lack human connection
Why agent teams have been the biggest disruptor in real estate in recent years
How Zillow has evolved its Zestimate algorithm to include human knowledge
Why Rob believes that our human need for approval is not disruptable
What makes Zillow the most likely platform to cause true disruption in real estate
The Tom Ferry study around top agents living paycheck to paycheck
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Rob’s Blog on Innovation in Real Estate
Our Sponsors:
Long-distance relationships are never easy. And if you’re part of the traveling circus that is the real estate conference circuit, you may be struggling to keep your professional relationships going in a virtual environment. Would being an orc help?
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are discussing the current pause in the real estate conference and trade show circuit and mourning the loss of chance meetings that don’t happen in a virtual environment. They explore why massively multiplayer online games (MMOs) like World of Warcraft work to create community and how real estate might replicate that always-on culture until the conference circuit comes back.
Rob and Greg go on to cover the challenge of sustaining long-distance relationships in an online world, explaining why we just can’t duplicate face-to-face interaction at virtual events. Listen in for insight on how going virtual is impacting MLSs, associations, and vendors and learn about the possibility for a 2020 MLS Proptech Symposium (which Rob wants to rename to the “2020 MLS Herd Symposium”) that would help sponsors make decisions about the feasibility of their own fiscal events.
What’s Discussed:
The current halt to the real estate conference/trade show circuit
What Greg covers in his forthcoming book, The Art of the CMA
The chance meetings that don’t happen in a virtual environment
Why we can’t duplicate face-to-face interaction through virtual events
The challenge of sustaining long-distance business/personal relationships
Why MMO games work to create community + how real estate might replicate that always-on culture
When the real estate conference circuit will come back
The impact of going virtual for MLS and association communities
--Increased engagement and attendance
--Eliminates serendipity of networking
How new vendors might build trust in the absence of in-person interaction
What we can do to gauge circuit response to physical events
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
2020 NAR Realtors Conference and Expo
Cover Art Choices for Greg’s Book
Greg’s Draft Agenda for the 2020 MLS Proptech Symposium (with Rob's edits)
Our Sponsors:
The Coronavirus forced many of us to work from home, leveraging technology to do our jobs remotely. Not only has this made us more comfortable with digital tools, it has us rethinking the need to commute to our offices on a daily basis. So, what do these changes mean for the real estate industry?
On this episode, Errol Samuelson, Chief Industry Development Officer at Zillow, joins Rob and Greg to share his top predictions around the post-pandemic future of real estate. He explores how commercial real estate is likely to change in light of COVID-19 and speaks to the potential to make transactions 100% digital moving forward.
Errol weighs in on how different geographies experienced the pandemic in different ways and how he thinks about the crisis’ potential long-term psychological impact. Listen in as Errol shares Zillow’s most recent stats on the changing consumer preferences for homes and learn how our growing comfort with virtualization will impact the way brokers and agents do business in the future.
What’s Discussed:
Errol’s top predictions re: the post-pandemic future of real estate
How commercial real estate will change in light of COVID-19
The potential to make real estate transactions 100% digital
The accelerated consumer use of digital tools in the home search process
How Errol thinks about the possibility of virtual appraisals
How virtualization is likely to impact brokers and agents
Zillow’s stats on how working from home is shifting consumer preferences
How cities may look different in a post-pandemic world
The possibility for COVID-19 to have a long-term psychological impact
How different geographies experienced this pandemic in different ways
What sci-fi technology is likely to change real estate in the near future
How Zoom is driving changes in the way we communicate
Connect with Errol:
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Dotloop’s 8 Predictions About the Post-Pandemic Future of Real Estate
The New York Times Article on Working from Home
Books by Nassim Nicholas Taleb
The Atlantic Piece on the ‘Patchwork Pandemic’
Glenn Kelman’s Diary of a Pandemic Part 1
Glenn Kelman’s Diary of a Pandemic Part 2
Glenn Kelman’s Diary of a Pandemic Part 3
Our Sponsors:
Last week, Rob & Greg imagined what the future of real estate might look like in the aftermath of the pandemic, pending a best-case scenario. Today, they get real about what’s ahead for the industry given the reality of our current circumstances. And they’re bringing on a number of industry stakeholders to offer their outlook as well.
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are leading a group chat around what’s next for real estate as the Coronavirus pandemic plays out. The group offers predictions on how the MLS landscape may change, debating whether it’s the number of MLSs or the number of MLS databases that really matters and offering examples of hybrid solutions that may serve as a model for the future.
Greg and Rob go on to solicit the group’s thoughts on the potential shape of the recovery curve and the possibility of a shift to a buyer’s market in 2021. Finally, they explain why an increase in property taxes is likely in the aftermath of the COVID-19 bailout and how that might impact buyer demand in the real estate market. Listen in for insight on Open House numbers in states where stay-at-home orders have been lifted and learn how those stats might be a good sign for other industries.
What’s Discussed:
A review of what Rob & Greg covered in their best-case discussion
Greg, Clint Skutchan, & John’s predictions re: the number of MLSs by 2023
Why the consolidation of data is more important than the total number of MLSs
Tim Dain’s vision of a future with ten or fewer MLS databases that talk to each other
How the pandemic demonstrates the industry’s underutilization of telecommunication
Why Georgia is watching the commercial market for clues re: the future of residential
Georgia’s concept of a J-shaped recovery
Why Joshua Lopour is predicting a buyer’s market in 2021
Why Greg expects a best-case scenario uptick in buyer demand
Why property taxes are likely to increase and how that might impact buyer demand
The significant uptick in Open Houses scheduled in states where stay-at-home orders have been lifted
How Open House numbers may be a good sign for other industries
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Great Recession + COVID-19 Bailout Comparison
ShowingTime Showing Activity Statistics
Our Sponsors:
Imagine a best-case scenario in which the Coronavirus is under control and the country is up and running by May 1. How have our social norms changed? What do these cultural shifts mean for organized real estate? And how is the industry different in a post-COVID-19 world?
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg get relentlessly positive, discussing the post-Coronavirus landscape of the real estate industry should the best happen. They weigh in on the cultural shifts that are likely to occur in the aftermath of COVID-19, predicting which rituals will persist once the current restrictions have been lifted.
Greg and Rob go on to debate what open houses will look like in a post-pandemic world, why showings may (or may not) be restricted to serious buyers, and when we might be back to pre-COVID transaction levels. Listen in for our hosts’ best-case expectations regarding buyer demand as well as NAR membership and brokerage numbers come September—pending a V-shaped recovery.
What’s Discussed:
Rob & Greg’s parameters for this potential best-case scenario
How the culture is likely to shift in the aftermath of COVID-19
What open houses will look like in a post-Coronavirus world
Why Rob believes showings will be restricted to serious buyers
When we might be back to pre-pandemic transaction levels
Why Greg expects a best-case scenario uptick in buyer demand
Rob’s prediction of a 20% drop in first-time homebuyers
Why Rob & Greg anticipate a 20% decline in NAR membership
How Rob & Greg differ around which agents will leave
The potential for 25% of small brokerages to join a larger team
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Our Sponsors:
On the surface, the government’s effort to support homeowners through forbearance is a good thing. Many Americans have lost their jobs because of the Coronavirus pandemic and simply don’t have the resources to make a mortgage payment right now. But what does this mean for the servicing industry? Why are lenders concerned about the unintended consequences of Washington’s response?
On this episode of Industry Relations, mortgage banking expert Rob Chrisman joins Rob and Greg to discuss what’s happening in the capital markets as a result of the Coronavirus shutdown. He walks us through how a mortgage functions as a product, explaining the relationship between the servicer and the end investor in a mortgage-backed security or MBS.
Rob C. addresses how government forbearance for borrowers will impact big banks as well as smaller, independent lenders and weighs in on Ginnie Mae’s promise to back nonbank servicers lacking the capital to pay investors. Listen in to understand how the Federal Reserve’s activity in the MBS market affects mortgage servicers and learn why the lending system is not broken despite the changes imposed by the health crisis.
What’s Discussed:
Rob C.’s background in mortgage banking + understanding of capital markets
How a mortgage functions as a product manufactured and sold to a buyer
The relationship between a mortgage servicer and the end investor
How government forbearance due to COVID-19 impacts mortgage servicers
Ginnie Mae’s promise to back nonbank servicers lacking capital to pay investors
How current circumstances compare to the 2008 recession
The tens of billions of servicers will owe in margin calls due to the MBS price increase
The consequences of the Federal Reserve’s activity in the MBS market
Why the non-QM and jumbo loan markets are on life support
Why Rob C. is predicting a V-shaped recovery for residential lending
How underwriting guidelines have changed in light of the global shutdown
Why property values are unlikely to take a dive across the board
Connect with Rob Chrisman:
Rob’s Daily Mortgage & News Commentary
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Our Sponsors:
No one in the real estate industry planned for a global pandemic to hit in 2020. So, what does a black swan event like the Coronavirus mean for agents, brokerages, associations, MLSs and vendors? How does the potential economic effect of COVID-19 parallel the virus itself?
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are discussing the short- and long-term impact the Coronavirus is likely to have on the real estate industry. They explain how fear and uncertainty might hurt the housing market over the next several months and explore the opportunity the pandemic presents for models like Redfin and Opendoor as well as investors with deep pockets.
Greg and Rob go on to consider how the cancellation of real estate conferences will cause a domino effect through many other industries and which brokerages, agents and vendors won’t be able to survive this kind of pause in business. Listen in for insight on the serious flaws in our economic system exposed by the health crisis and learn how embracing a little of the prepper mentality can help us respond and adjust to a black swan event like the Coronavirus.
What’s Discussed:
The short-term impact Coronavirus might have on the housing market
The potential opportunity for models like Redfin and Opendoor
How investors are likely to take advantage of low-interest rates
The cancellation of real estate events and its domino effect through other industries
How the economic fallout of the Coronavirus parallels the virus itself
The brokerages, agents and vendors who may not survive a pause in business
How the pandemic exposes flaws in our economic and healthcare systems
Rob’s insight around manufacturing necessities here in the US
The pros and cons of having the world’s reserve currency
Embracing the prepper mentality to survive unforeseen circumstances
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
President Trump’s March 11 Address
The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable by Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Antifragile: Things That Gain from Disorder by Nassim Nicholas Taleb
Our Sponsors:
What does organized real estate look like in 2030? Who is winning?
Incumbent brokerages are betting on the recruit-and-retain model that has worked for the last several decades, doubling down on the agent’s sphere as their primary source of leads. Disruptors are betting on a world where the agent matters less than the brand itself, where realtors are only responsible for service delivery and leads are generated entirely through the institution’s online platform. Who is your money on?
In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are discussing the themes that came up at Inman’s CEO Connect and the confidence incumbent brokerages have in their ability to outlast market disruptors. They cover the advantages incumbents boast in terms of scale and profitability, exploring whether industry giants are truly all-in on technology and the iBuyer models—or if they’re adding those initiatives simply to overcome agent objections.
Greg and Rob go on to consider a potential decline in the number of agents by the end of this decade and explain why agent teams continue to pose the greatest threat to brokerages. Listen in for insight around how key players in other industries have leveraged the power of incumbency to compete with disruptors and place your bet on either the agent-centric incumbent brokerages OR the institution-focused disruptors.
What’s Discussed:
The advantages incumbent brokerages have in terms of scale + profitability
Adopting new tech as a marketing ploy to bolster a brokerage’s value prop to agents
Why many brokerages chose to partner with rather than acquire iBuyers
Why successful brokerages can do everything right and still lose market leadership
How key players in the automotive industry have leveraged the power of incumbency
The fundamental difference between real estate incumbents and disruptors
How the future of real estate will continue to be dominated by agent teams
Why the number of agents is likely to drop to 400K by the end of the decade
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
John Campbell on The Notorious Interview
Our Sponsors:
At present, MLSs are run like nonprofits. And without a way to raise capital, industry executives limit their vision based on the resources at hand. But what if there were no constraints? What kind of Big Hairy Audacious Goals could MLSs pursue with funding from deep-pocketed venture investors?
In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are challenging MLS execs to consider what they would do differently with access to significant capital. Greg weighs in on the discussions around implementing the MLS Statement 8.0 Clear Cooperation Policy (otherwise known as Ocho) that took place at Inman Connect, describing how the differences among individual MLSs will inform its implementation.
Greg and Rob go on to discuss how the challenges associated with switching MLS vendors benefit incumbents and why most MLSs adopt a system of choice approach to consolidation. Listen in for Rob’s take on how MLS execs constrain their vision based on the resources available and take up Greg’s challenge to think about what you would do differently with $5M, $50M or even $500M.
What’s Discussed:
The discussion regarding how to implement the Clear Cooperation Policy at Inman Connect
How Ocho impacts Compass’ strategy for differentiating its listings
How the differences among MLS Coming Soon policies will inform Ocho’s implementation
The possibilities for interpretation around what qualifies as marketing
How the challenges associated with switching vendors benefit incumbent MLSs
What’s behind the system of choice approach adopted by most MLSs
Why Rob contends that MLS execs constrain their vision based on resources
NAR as a trade organization vs. the MLS as a tech product + service provider
Greg’s challenge for MLS execs to consider what they would do with access to capital
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
MLS Statement 8.0 Clear Cooperation Policy
Homesnap Pro’s Predictive Analytics
Rob’s Post on the Clear Cooperation Policy
Rob’s Post on the Fundamental Problems in Real Estate
Business Insider Top 15 Real Estate Podcasts
Our Sponsors:
On January 1, 2010, organized real estate was still reeling from the recession. Dale Stinton was steering the ship at NAR. Zillow was seen as the enemy of the MLS. Real estate software was meh. Agent teams were rare. Nearly all brokerages took a split. Selling your house online seemed outrageous. And we still signed documents in pen.
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are looking back at the last 10 years in real estate. They discuss the passing NAR’s MLS Statement 8.0 Clear Cooperation Policy, debating the significance of the office exclusives loophole and how it might lead to government involvement. Our hosts also express their disappointment around the Newsday investigation in Long Island, Testing the Divide, challenging brokerage leadership to make a strong statement against the egregious racism it uncovered.
Greg and Rob go on to share their top 10 defining moments and trends with the biggest impact on the industry over the last decade, describing how the rise of agent teams, 100% commission brokerages, the iBuyer model and consolidation have transformed organized real estate. Listen in for insight into how NAR’s decision to fund RPR and Upstream changed the way the MLS saw Zillow and explore how the space has evolved from 2010 through the end of 2019.
What’s Discussed:
NAR’s passing of the MLS Statement 8.0 Clear Cooperation Policy
Rob & Greg’s take on the Newsday investigation in Long Island
How the loophole in 8.0 could lead to government involvement
The 10 defining trends/events in the last decade of real estate
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Compass Pre-Litigation Letter to Bright MLS
Newsday Documentary: Testing the Divide
Rob’s Blog on the Newsday Piece
1000watt Article on Real Estate Software
The Millionaire Real Estate Agent by Gary Keller with Dave Jenks and Jay Papasan
Ben Thompson Interview with Rich Barton
Our Sponsors:
It’s our CMLS Conference Pre-Show Podcast! In an effort to curb the rampant growth of Coming Soon listings, NAR’s Multiple Listing Issues and Policies Committee has issued a proposal to clarify the Clear Cooperation Policy. But will the guidelines actually put an end to pocket listings? Are the rules a good compromise? Or should the MLS die on the hill of all-or-nothing, requiring members to list there first?
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg discuss NAR’s draft MLS Policy Statement 8.0, exploring whether the guidelines go far enough in preventing exclusive listings. Rob explains why the 24-hour submission window and the concession around office exclusives are a problem, arguing that the MLS must take a stand NOW to establish itself as the primary marketplace for property listings.
Greg challenges Rob’s view that the MLS is not already the primary marketplace, applauding the 24-hour window as a reasonable and clever compromise and arguing that pocket listings are a breach of fiduciary duty. Listen in to understand Rob’s proposal to extend the all-in IDX rules to MLS membership as a whole and consider how Policy Statement 8.0 will (or will not) impact the pocket listing strategies employed by large national brokerages.
What’s Discussed:
Rob’s take that NAR MLS Policy 8.0 doesn’t go far enough
Whether the MLS is the marketplace or a data repository
The potential confusion around one-to-one communication
What does and does not qualify as marketing under 8.0
Greg’s view of the 24-hour window as a clever compromise
How Rob defines a primary marketplace as first-in-time
Greg’s challenge that 70% of deals qualifies as ‘primary’
Why Greg sees pocket listings as a code of ethics issue
Extending IDX all-in rules to MLS membership as a whole
How exclusive listings benefit large national brokerages
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
MLS Technology and Emerging Issues Advisory Board
Rob’s Post on MLS Policy Statement 8.0
Sam Debord’s Response to Rob’s Post
Rob’s Follow Up Post on MLS Policy Statement 8.0
NAR 2019 Home Buyers and Sellers Generational Trends Report
2019 Zillow Group Consumer Housing Trends Report
Our Sponsors:
Tremors, in and of themselves, cause minimal damage. But sometimes those tremors are the precursor to something a whole lot bigger. Organized real estate is ripe with these little shakeups, and whether you’re a brokerage, franchiser, vendor, portal or agent, the Tinder-ization of everything WILL impact your business. It’s already changing the way we generate leads and may very well eliminate outbound marketing as a viable option.
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg discuss a few of the current tremors making waves in organized real estate, starting with the new FCC rule allowing mobile carriers to block unknown callers. They explain how the iOS 13 update might impact lead generation and why inbound and content marketing will become crucial in light of these changes.
Rob goes on to explore how the death of outbound marketing could make agent teams that much more important and challenges the idea that agents working with teams qualify as independent contractors under California Assembly Bill 5. Listen in for Greg’s insight around how high agent turnover impacts the way SaaS vendors do business and learn why nimbleness and brand recognition are key to survival in the real estate space.
What’s Discussed:
The new FCC rule allowing mobile carriers to block unknown callers
How the iOS 13 update will impact lead generation in real estate
Greg’s insight around the value of inbound + content marketing
How the death of outbound marketing will make agent teams even more important
The distinction between independent contracts and employees in California AB-5
Rob’s argument that team leads qualify as employers under AB-5
How 30% agent churn impacts the way real estate vendors do business
Why SaaS companies in real estate must focus on customer experience
The idea that every day is Day One in establishing brand recognition
Why being nimble is the key to survival in the real estate industry
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
REALTORS with Guns Facebook Group
Rob’s Interview with Chris Drayer
FCC Rule on Blocking Unknown Callers
Chris Drayer’s Post on the Death of Lead Gen
Our Sponsors:
Fight! Fight! Fight!
We’ve always been told that people love it when Rob and Greg argue. If that true, then we have one of the best Industry Relations Show ever!
With Inman Connect Las Vegas on the horizon, Rob and Greg are facing off over the trend toward exclusive listings and the new Redfin-Opendoor partnership. What does the development of in-house listing programs mean for the industry? And how will the joint venture with Opendoor impact RedfinNow? Our intrepid hosts have very different answers to these questions.
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are discussing the impact of systematic coming soon listings. Rob makes the argument that widespread adoption will take down the MLS, moving residential real estate to the commercial model. Greg makes the case that pocket listings are nothing new and challenges the idea that the MLS will become a ‘dumping ground’ for properties that haven’t sold privately.
Rob and Greg also weigh in on the new partnership between Redfin and Opendoor. Listen in for Greg’s insight around why the collaboration is a genius move that benefits both parties and learn why Rob sees it as a huge concession on Redfin’s part—a concession that will eliminate their own iBuyer operations in each and every Opendoor market.
What’s Discussed:
What Rob & Greg are looking forward to most at Inman Connect
Greg’s criticism of Rob’s recent posts on RealScout’s Buyer Graph
Rob’s argument that coming soon programs will take down the MLS
Greg’s counter that exclusive listings are not a new phenomenon
How residential real estate may be moving to a commercial model
Greg’s take on the brilliance of the Redfin & Opendoor partnership
How the new partnership with Opendoor will impact RedfinNow
Rob’s view of the partnership as a concession on the part of Redfin
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Our Sponsors:
Traditional brokerages got 99 problems. They’ve got to compete with iBuyers. They’ve got to compete with 100% commission models. They’ve got to innovate new products and services. They’ve got to figure out a way to make money off those products and services. And they’ve got to worry about potential industry regulations and the insane amount of capital flowing in to would-be disruptors. So, what can brokerages do to address the fundamental flaws in the traditional model—and survive the next five years?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the top issues traditional brokerages face and what they can do about it. They address the implications around Compass’ renewed focus on product and Wall Street analyst John Campbell’s comments regarding the tipping point Realogy and other traditional brokerages face.
Rob and Greg weigh in on the fact that brokerages LOSE money on top producers and the challenge of monetizing products and services for agents. Listen in for insight around the future of traditional models like that of Realogy and RE/MAX and learn how agents and brokerages might adapt to the disruptions facing the real estate industry.
What’s Discussed:
The public interest argument for representing the buyer’s side
The implications around Compass’ renewed focus on product
John Campbell’s comments on the tipping point Realogy faces
The issues around productivity in a traditional brokerage model
Why brokers need to make money through products + services
How brokerage iBuyer initiatives are really listing lead programs
Why Upstream doesn’t address the problems brokers face now
The fundamental flaws in the traditional brokerage model
The future of Realogy, RE/MAX, Redfin, eXp and Home Services
What agents might do in a world with 60% iBuyer market share
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Gradually … Then, Suddenly! Podcast
The Tom Ferry Podcast Experience
Glenn Kelman on Scratch That EP010
‘Is a Compass IPO Coming Soon?’ in Inman
John Campbell’s Comments in MarketWatch
The DOJ’s Scrutiny of Cooperating Compensation on IR EP035
Rob’s Future of Brokerage Black Paper
Industry Relations has just been nominated by Inman News Innovator award under the INNOVATIVE VIDEO/PODCAST SHOW category! Thanks for everyone’s support!
And now on with the show....
When Moehrl v. NAR was introduced in March, the industry response was largely… meh. Then in April, the Department of Justice reached out to the top MLS platform vendor, requiring documents and testimony about MLS data—with a specific focus on cooperating compensation. What is the DOJ likely to find? How might this information impact the class action suit? And what does it all mean for the real estate industry as a whole?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the Civil Investigative Demand (CID) CoreLogic recently received from the DOJ. They address the possibility of getting compensation data in the absence of a search feature on the MLS and predict whether the DOJ will find buyer-steering to be a widespread phenomenon.
Rob offers his take on why a directive requiring the disclosure of sold information would be more likely than new regulations, and Greg speculates that the industry is unlikely to stand by while the government eliminates cooperating compensation. Listen in to understand how the plaintiff attorneys in Moehrl v. NAR might use the DOJ’s findings and learn why organized real estate needs to take the lawsuit seriously.
What’s Discussed:
The Civil Investigative Demand CoreLogic received from the DOJ
Getting compensation data without a feature search on the MLS
What a DOJ study demonstrating buyer steering might achieve
Why disclosure of sold info is more likely than new regulations
How many brokers + agents script for the commission question
How DOJ findings might be used by attorneys in Moehrl v. NAR
How the Canadian Competition Bureau handled this issue
The potential impact of eliminating cooperating compensation
How it could take up to 10 years to resolve the class action case
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Rob’s Post on CoreLogic & the DOJ
Rob’s 2015 Post on the NBER Study
Randy Ora’s Live Listing Presentation
Rob’s Post on the Brookings Institute Panel
Rob and Greg have often said that Redfin is the most important tech-centric brokerage that no one is talking about. Well, that is about to change with the company’s unveiling of Redfin Direct, a service allowing consumers to buy properties without representation. What’s behind Glenn Kelman’s move to give customers another ‘layer of choice’? And how might the real estate industry respond?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit, from Rich Barton to Gary Keller to John Peyton. They describe the pervasive nature of brokerages talking strategically about competing with iBuyers and tech as well as the buzz around Art Carter’s call for a new type of organizational structure around the MLS.
Greg speaks to the way ‘GFK’ won the room at T3 with his humor and authenticity, and Rob asks about the impetus behind Redfin Direct and how the industry might respond. Listen in for insight around how the program puts Redfin on the radar in a way it hasn’t been before and learn how Redfin Direct might work in conjunction with Redfin Now and the brokerage’s title and mortgage programs.
What’s Discussed:
Greg’s insight on the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit
Art Carter’s call for a new type of MLS organizational structure
The pervasive nature of brokerages addressing iBuyers + tech
How Glenn Kelman ‘won the room’ with his authenticity at T3
The stark contrast between Redfin and Compass’ mission
Greg’s take on Redfin Direct + the potential industry response
The impetus behind Redfin Direct and how it was announced
How Redfin Direct supports its title + mortgage programs
How Redfin Direct puts the company on the industry’s radar
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Resources:
Mike Simonsen, Rob Hahn & Gahlord Dewald Talk Millennials
Glenn Kelman on Listing Bits EP045
‘Redfin Direct Offers’ on Bubble Info
Andrea Riquier’s Interview with Rob on MarketWatch
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Rob and Greg have often said that Redfin is the most important tech-centric brokerage that no one is talking about. Well, that is about to change with the company’s unveiling of Redfin Direct, a service allowing consumers to buy properties without representation. What’s behind Glenn Kelman’s move to give customers another ‘layer of choice’? And how might the real estate industry respond?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit, from Rich Barton to Gary Keller to John Peyton. They describe the pervasive nature of brokerages talking strategically about competing with iBuyers and tech as well as the buzz around Art Carter’s call for a new type of organizational structure around the MLS.
Greg speaks to the way ‘GFK’ won the room at T3 with his humor and authenticity, and Rob asks about the impetus behind Redfin Direct and how the industry might respond. Listen in for insight around how the program puts Redfin on the radar in a way it hasn’t been before and learn how Redfin Direct might work in conjunction with Redfin Now and the brokerage’s title and mortgage programs.
What’s Discussed:
Greg’s insight on the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit
Art Carter’s call for a new type of MLS organizational structure
The pervasive nature of brokerages addressing iBuyers + tech
How Glenn Kelman ‘won the room’ with his authenticity at T3
The stark contrast between Redfin and Compass’ mission
Greg’s take on Redfin Direct + the potential industry response
The impetus behind Redfin Direct and how it was announced
How Redfin Direct supports its title + mortgage programs
How Redfin Direct puts the company on the industry’s radar
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Resources:
Mike Simonsen, Rob Hahn & Gahlord Dewald Talk Millennials
Glenn Kelman on Listing Bits EP045
‘Redfin Direct Offers’ on Bubble Info
Andrea Riquier’s Interview with Rob on MarketWatch
Our Sponsors:
To this point, we assumed that the iBuyer model would target homeowners willing to pay for convenience and that the average consumer would continue to employ a real estate agent—and earn more money for their patience. But Zillow’s Q4 numbers reflect that homeowners can actually make MORE selling to the platform than they would with a realtor. So, how does this information impact the potential market share of iBuyers moving forward? And how will it affect the way agents do business?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the change in leadership at Zillow, debating the company’s performance under Spencer Rascoff and Richard Barton’s motivation to return as CEO. They explore the possibility of a merger between Opendoor and Zillow, uniting the former’s mastery of workflow with the latter’s proficiency at lead flow.
Rob and Greg also speak to Redfin’s potential to adopt the iBuyer model and the way of thinking shared by Redfin and Opendoor. Listen in to understand the full implications of Zillow’s Q4 iBuyer unit economics learn how the iBuyer market may impact the industry in light of this new information.
What’s Discussed:
Barton’s motivation to return to Zillow as CEO
Zillow’s performance under Rascoff’s leadership
Opendoor’s complementary mastery of workflow
Zillow’s hiring of Arik Prawer to run iBuyer operations
The shared philosophy between Redfin and Opendoor
The implications of Zillow’s Q4 iBuyer unit economics
How iBuyer unit economics may impact realtors
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
‘Homeowners Net More Selling to Zillow Than with a REALTOR’ in Notorious ROB
‘Spencer Rascoff Out as CEO of Zillow’ in Vendor Alley
Mike DelPrete’s Presentation at Inman Connect
Our Sponsors:
Gary Keller made a series of very bold claims when he announced the launch of the new KW tech platform at January’s Family Reunion conference, even going so far as to say that ‘the race to build the first end-to-end real estate platform is over and everyone else is competing for second place.’
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing Keller’s comments, questioning the decision to set the bar so high and sharing Brian Boero’s take on Keller’s hubris as that of a master showman rallying the troops. Rob asks how we might measure the success of the KW tech platform and how much big-time investments in tech truly impact agent productivity.
Rob and Greg also explore the idea that introducing new tech serves to ‘stop the bleeding,’ keeping agents and agent teams from leaving for tech centric brokerages like eXp. Listen in for insight around the performance of traditional brokerages that put big money in tech and learn why Rob believes the industry should stop fighting the last war and shift its focus to capital.
What’s Discussed:
The hype around the launch of the Keller Williams consumer app
Boero’s take that Keller’s hubris is necessary to ‘rally the troops’
How we might measure the success of the KW tech platform
The dismal numbers reported in Realogy’s recent earnings call
How much tech investments truly impact realtor productivity
Why Rob believes the industry needs to focus on capital vs. tech
KW’s potential to systematize agent marketing through software
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Resources:
2019 Clareity MLS Executive Workshop
‘Gary, Put Down the Bong’ in Vendor Alley
‘Gary Keller Declares Victory in Real Estate Tech Platform Race’ in Inman
‘Please Stop Fighting the Last War’ in Notorious ROB
Our Sponsors:
At Inman Connect, the top movers and shakers in real estate come together to learn about the latest technology and explore what’s next for the industry. And in 2019, the hot topics include disruptors like Compass and eXp, the impact of data aggregators on the MLS, and the relevance of franchisers in light of tech centric startup brokerages. So, what are the most interesting conversations happening at the conference this year? And what SHOULD we be talking about?
Today, Rob and Greg are sharing the highlights of Inman & CEO Connect (live from the lobby of the Marriott Marquis), discussing how the conference focuses on the intersection of real estate and technology and what predictions Inman has gotten right over the years. They speak to Brad Inman’s interview with Rob Reffkin, Ben Kinney’s talk knocking brands like Compass and eXp, and the conversation among brokers, franchisers and tech company CEOs regarding the MLS. Rob asks why no one is talking about Redfin, and Greg predicts when the industry will recognize it as a significant force.
Then Rob and Greg snag Sam DeBord, Managing Broker and VP of Strategic Growth for Coldwell Banker Danforth in Seattle, to get his take on Kinney’s advice to brokers and the research around stock options and franchise loyalty. Listen in to understand why franchises need to make their value offerings more obvious and easy to use—and learn why Greg believes the mortgage space is ripe for disruption.
What’s Discussed:
The highlights of the Inman Connect conference in NYC
How technology has (and has not) impacted real estate
Brad Inman’s interview with Rob Reffkin at CEO Connect
Ben Kinney’s criticisms of brands like Compass and eXp
When the industry will recognize Redfin as a significant force
The talk among brokers and tech CEOs around the MLS
The tech community’s struggle re: cooperation and compensation
How Inman called the rise of the iBuyer model
Kinney’s advice to brokers on prepping agents for a market shift
Sam’s insight on the research around stock options and loyalty
Why franchises need to make value offerings easy to use
Why the mortgage space is ripe for disruption
Connect with Sam:
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
When Software Eats the Real (Estate) World
We know that Compassis built around technology and that the real estate company has a shit ton of money—$4.4B, to be exact. But what else do we know about the tools and resources Compass offers its agents or the direction the company might take moving forward? Lucky for us, the firm’s most recent vision statementwas published online, and while it was incredibly inspiring, the presentation also raised a number of questions.
Rob and Greg welcome special guest Sunny Lake Hahn, partner at 7DS Associates, to offer a broker’s perspective as they discuss the Compass vision statement. Greg offers an overview of the presentation, covering the suite of products and services that Compass offers their agents and CEO Robert Reffkin’s inspiring personal story and message of empowerment. Sunny explains why she was impressed by the company’s COO offering for agents as well as their technology feedback loop.
Rob, Greg and Sunny debate whether Compass can provide a consistent user experience, describing how the company does offer continuity in terms of tools, resources and consumer-agent interaction. Greg shares his take on why wooing agents with a payout might be problematic, and Rob speaks to Compass’ potential play to generate revenue through preferred vendors. Listen in for Sunny’s perspective of Reffkin’s emphasis on female entrepreneurs and learn more about what differentiates Compass—and what makes it just like all the other brokerages.
What’s Discussed:
Compass’ strategic decision to publish their vision statement
The suite of products and services Compass offers their agents
CEO Robert Reffkin’s inspiring personal story and message
Sunny’s insight on the value of Compass’ tech feedback loop
Compass’ contract provision around using the tools provided
Why Compass cannot guarantee a consistent user experience
How Compass can provide continuity in terms of resources
Greg’s take on why wooing agents with a payout is problematic
The potential for Compass to leverage the ‘referral economy’
Sunny’s view of Reffkin’s message on female entrepreneurs
Sunny’s idea for brokers to execute on the COO offering locally
Resources:
Glenn Kellman’s Gender Pay Study
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Look into your crystal ball and ask about the future of real estate. A venture capitalist’s vision of the industry eliminates agents entirely in favor of the data a tech company can provide. A number of brokers are hoping to go back to the future and once again serve as the gatekeepers for real estate listings. Meanwhile UpstreamRE can’t seem to get a clear picture of its future at all. Will software ‘eat the real (estate) world’ as the recent a16z video suggests? Will brokerages find a way to regain control of their listings? Will UpstreamRE ever nail down an objective?
Rob and Greg start their review of recent real estate news with a discussion of the humbling Andreessen Horowitz video exposing the obvious flaws in organized real estate. They cover Alex Rampell’s argument against the narrative of agent as ‘trusted advisor’ and his thesis that metrics will eventually replace agents. Rob describes how technology might impact the future number of real estate agents and how much consumers will be willing to pay for guidance from a professional.
Greg shares his frustration with the ‘obvious BS’ surrounding UpstreamRE’s breakup with NAR, offering his take on why the alliance didn’t work and the new narrative around the company’s purpose. Rob and Greg both deliver their predictions regarding who UpstreamRE’s new vendor might be and how MLS providers may view the project’s latest pivot. Listen in for insight into the futility of broker efforts to regain control of listings and learn why UpstreamRE’s new vendor may want to ask for their money up front!
What’s Discussed:
The Andreessen Horowitz video on organized real estate
Alex Rampell’s argument against the ‘trusted advisor’
The prediction that metrics and data will replace agents
Mike Delprete’s insight on loss aversion in transactions
Money and partnerships vs. execution in tech startups
The impact of tech on the number of real estate agents
Why UpstreamRE’s partnership with NAR didn’t work
The new narrative around UpstreamRE’s objectives
Rob & Greg’s predictions re: UpstreamRE’s new vendor
How MLS providers may view UpstreamRE’s latest pivot
The futility of broker efforts to regain control of listings
Resources:
When Software Eats the Real (Estate) World
The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answersby Ben Horowitz
Who Is Michael Ovitz?by Michael Ovitz
Mike Delprete on Loss Aversion
New York Times Financial Crisis 2019 Article
The Red Dot
Connect with Rob and Greg: