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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg tackle three major industry shake-ups: Gary Keller selling a stake in Keller Williams, REX losing its lawsuit against NAR and Zillow, and the launch of a new NAR alternative, AREA, by Mauricio Umansky and Jason Haber. They debate what these moves mean for the future of real estate, the ongoing battle over commission structures, and whether the DOJ’s real target is the MLS monopoly. If you’re looking for sharp analysis with a side of sarcasm, this episode delivers.
Key Takeaways
• Keller Williams Goes Private Equity: Gary Keller sells a stake to Stone Point Capital—what does this mean for KW’s future and private equity’s role in real estate?
• The Death of REX?: REX loses its lawsuit against Zillow and NAR. Was this just a bad case, or is the DOJ preparing to take a bigger swing?
• AREA’s New MLS Policy: Mauricio Umansky and Jason Haber’s new NAR alternative introduces a Clear Collaboration Policy—but is it just a repackaged CCP?
• DOJ’s Real Endgame: Rob argues that the Department of Justice doesn’t care about commission lawsuits—it’s after MLS monopolies.
• The Free Market MLS Debate: Should agents have multiple MLS options? Greg and Rob debate the risks and rewards of breaking up the monopoly.
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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg dive into the controversy surrounding dual agency, private networks, and the MLS’s role in protecting small brokers. They break down the industry’s long-standing acceptance of brokerage-level dual agency while questioning why teams are getting a pass. Plus, they debate whether Compass’s push to double-end deals is just standard brokerage strategy—or an attempt to reshape the industry. If you want unfiltered takes on where real estate is headed, this episode is for you.
Key Takeaways
• Is Brokerage Dual Agency Bad? Rob argues that the industry has historically supported it—so why the sudden outrage?
• The Compass Controversy: Greg and Rob discuss whether Compass is playing the same game as everyone else or trying to blow up the MLS for its own benefit.
• The Team Dual Agency Dilemma: Should teams be held to a different standard? Rob questions why brokerages get a pass but teams don’t.
• MLS Protection for Small Brokers: Rob suggests the MLS has always been designed to protect smaller brokerages—should that continue?
• The Future of Private Listings: If brokers create exclusive networks, will they face lawsuits—or is that just scare tactics?
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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg break down the latest in the ongoing battle over NAR’s three-way agreement and how Phoenix Realtors’ recent compromise with NAR might reshape the industry. They explore whether this is a true win for NAR or just the beginning of a major shift, debating the rise of the “Freedom Plan” and how it could spread across the country. With bold predictions, deep industry insights, and a fair amount of sarcasm, this episode is a must-listen for anyone keeping an eye on real estate governance.
Key Takeaways
• Phoenix Realtors’ “Compromise”: Did they cave to NAR, or did they find a way to rewrite the rules on their own terms?
• The Freedom Plan vs. Realtor Membership: How the rebranded “Non-Member MLS Access” could be the start of a larger movement.
• Will Other Associations Follow?: If Phoenix can do it, why wouldn’t Scottsdale and other local associations jump on board?
• State Associations’ Next Move: Will Arizona Realtors create their own version of the Freedom Plan to retain members?
• Is the Three-Way Agreement Dead?: Rob argues that this move could mark the beginning of the end for NAR’s traditional membership structure
Inman News: NAR, Phoenix Realtors settle fight over MLS Choice
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Overview
In this special live episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg broadcast from the Virtual MLS Summit, where they tackle one of the biggest questions in real estate today: What does “cooperation” mean in a post-settlement world? They explore how the industry’s shift away from compensation impacts the role of MLSs, debate the long-standing relationship between brokerages and associations, and challenge whether MLSs should truly be considered “broker cooperatives.” This episode is packed with bold insights, historical context, and plenty of Rob vs. Greg fireworks.
Key Takeaways
• The Evolution of Cooperation: With compensation no longer tied to MLS participation, what does cooperation actually mean now?
• MLS Governance and Broker Control: If MLSs are broker cooperatives, why are associations still making the rules?
• The Fiduciary Duty Dilemma: Can cooperation exist when agents owe full fiduciary duties to their clients?
• The Government’s Potential Role: If the industry doesn’t self-regulate effectively, will federal regulators step in and take over?
• Lessons from Global Real Estate: Why other countries envy the U.S. MLS system—and what we risk losing if we dismantle it.
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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg dive into one of the most heated debates yet—was NAR’s fight for survival a necessary battle, or did it do more harm than good? They analyze the fallout from the settlement, discuss the rise of leaders like Michelle Harrington who are ditching corporate-speak for real talk, and debate whether NAR should have surrendered years ago to avoid the lawsuits entirely.
Key Takeaways
• Michelle Harrington’s Blunt Truths: The First Team CEO calls the settlement “bulls***,” and Rob and Greg love her authenticity.
• Corporate-Speak vs. Real Talk: Why real estate leaders should ditch the PR fluff and embrace straight-shooting communication.
• The $2 Billion Club Controversy: Why independent brokerages feel abandoned and how the settlement exposed them to legal threats.
• Should NAR Have Surrendered in 2018? Rob argues they could have avoided everything if they had just given in earlier. Greg pushes back.
• Zombie Members or Hostages? Rob says NAR fought to protect dues from disengaged agents. Greg insists they were an opportunity, not a liability.
Inman story on FirstTeam CEO, Michelle Harrington; "A broker left out of NAR settlement gets candid: 'I'm still pissed'"
Todd Carpenter's LinkedIn post on "Zombie members vs. Super members"
Rob Substack, "Between Black Pill and White Pill"
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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg recap Greg’s recent MLS Reset conference and dive into key industry insights. They discuss governance reform, competition between MLSs, data sharing agreements, and bold ideas for innovation in the real estate world. From pitch battles for tech innovation to thought-provoking commentary on leadership, this episode offers plenty of takeaways for industry professionals.
Key Takeaways
• MLS Reset Conference Recap: Greg shares highlights, including impactful presentations by Brian Boero, Michael Wurzer, and Curt Beardsley, Ben Graboske, who challenged the industry to embrace optimism.
• Governance Reform: Rob emphasizes the importance of reducing board sizes and increasing nimbleness
• Data Sharing and Competition: Rob and Greg debate whether MLSs should compete on services, price, and tech while maintaining data-sharing agreements.
• Source MLS Branding: A conversation on Michael Wurzer’s Source MLS concept as a trusted, transparent data brand.
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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg navigate the fallout from key legal decisions and the broader implications for the real estate industry. They analyze the Supreme Court’s denial of NAR’s cert petition, its potential effects on DOJ actions, and how shifting dynamics—such as commission lawsuits and housing market pressures—might reshape the landscape. The conversation also previews upcoming events and industry challenges that will define the next chapter of real estate.
Key Takeaways
• Supreme Court Denies NAR’s Petition: What this decision means for DOJ’s antitrust investigations and future legal battles.
• Commission Lawsuits Continue: Why the litigation isn’t over and what could come next, including potential first-time homebuyer class actions.
• DOJ’s Goals: Rob and Greg speculate on what the Department of Justice ultimately wants for the real estate industry, including reducing transaction fees.
• Housing Market Pressures: Rising costs, insurance challenges, and inventory shifts, including their impact on rentals and sales.
• Upcoming Events: The MLS Reset Conference and the first-ever Industry Relations live stream scheduled for February 7th.
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In this thought-provoking episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg explore the seismic changes shaking up the real estate world as Phoenix Realtors challenge the NAR three-way agreement. They delve into the implications of member-driven value propositions, whether NAR can reinvent itself, and the ongoing debate over what truly inspires and retains Realtor memberships. The conversation is a deep dive into the challenges and opportunities ahead for the industry.
Key Takeaways
• Phoenix Realtors’ Bold Move: The Phoenix Association’s MLS Choice Program creates a potential watershed moment, questioning the viability of NAR’s three-way agreement.
• Membership Value Propositions: Rob and Greg discuss the importance of offering concrete benefits to agents versus relying solely on advocacy or inspiration.
• NAR’s Leadership Challenge: Speculation on whether high-profile leadership, such as a celebrity figure, could transform NAR’s narrative and mission.
• The Future of Realtor Memberships: Exploring voluntary membership models and the need for NAR to rethink its approach to retaining and attracting agents.
• Big Questions for 2025: What does it take for an agent to see NAR membership as a must-have in a post-Phoenix world?
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In this final episode of the year, Rob and Greg deliver their predictions for 2025, exploring how the real estate industry will evolve. They tackle everything from transaction volumes and mortgage rates to the fate of MLSs and the potential unraveling of the three-way agreement. Along the way, they discuss societal trends, like the importance of community and the role associations can play in bringing people together, while reflecting on industry dynamics and the future of key players like Realtor.com and Compass.
Key Takeaways
• Predictions for 2025: Rob and Greg forecast transaction numbers, mortgage rates, home prices, and the biggest M&A moves.
• The Fate of MLSs: Discussion on whether MLSs will remain relevant or adapt to changing times.
• Unraveling the Three-Way Agreement: The potential impact of associations like Phoenix breaking away from NAR.
• The Importance of Community: Inspired by the book Bowling Alone and the documentary Join or Die, they discuss how associations can evolve to foster better connections.
• Major Industry Moves: Speculation on Realtor.com’s next big acquisition and predictions around mergers like Bright MLS and Stellar MLS.
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In this Industry Relations episode, Rob and Greg reflect on the pivotal events of 2024, dubbing it “The Year of the Settlement.” They analyze the seismic shifts in real estate, including the impact of high-interest rates, low inventory, NAR’s declining influence, and the ripple effects of major lawsuits. The duo also previews what these changes could mean for 2025 and beyond, setting the stage for a new era in real estate.
Key Takeaways
• 2024: A Year of Change: Why the settlement and other industry events signal the dawn of Real Estate 3.0.
• NAR’s Decline: The fallout from scandals and lawsuits has shifted perceptions of NAR as an industry powerhouse.
• Housing Market Woes: High-interest rates and inventory challenges persist, affecting transactions and industry morale.
• The CCP Debate: Controversy surrounding Clear Cooperation Policy continues to evolve, with implications for the future of MLSs.
• Compass’s Moves: The acquisition of @properties and its strategy around private exclusives sparks debate.
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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg tackle the latest controversies surrounding NAR and the recent investigative article from The New York Times. They debate the role of lobbying, explore accusations of corruption and financial mismanagement, and reflect on the broader challenges facing NAR’s leadership and reputation.
Key Takeaways
• NAR and Lobbying Controversy: Discussion on how NAR funnels money to political groups through entities like the American Property Owners Alliance (APOA).
• The “Woke vs. Conservative” Debate: Examining NAR’s conflicting image as both progressive and a supporter of conservative causes.
• Transparency Issues: Why NAR’s approach to handling controversies feels “astroturfy” and the need for more open dialogue with members.
• Organizing Homeowners: The untapped potential of grassroots homeowner advocacy and how it could reshape lobbying strategies.
• PR Missteps: Criticism of NAR’s traditional PR playbook and a call for leadership to adopt more authentic communication strategies.
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Overview
In this special episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg welcome economist and author Professor Bryan Caplan to discuss his latest book, Build Baby Build: The Science and Ethics of Housing Regulation. The trio dives into the housing crisis, exploring how deregulation could address affordability, inequality, and other societal issues. Bryan’s insights challenge conventional thinking, offering bold solutions for the future of housing.
Key Takeaways
• Core Argument: Bryan argues that excessive housing regulations have driven up costs, stifled innovation, and exacerbated inequality, advocating for widespread deregulation.
• The 50% Reduction Claim: Deregulation could halve housing prices nationwide by enabling construction and reducing bureaucratic hurdles.
• NIMBYism and Local Politics: Local resistance to development, often driven by fear and misinformation, remains a significant barrier to solving the housing crisis.
• Economic and Social Benefits: Lower housing costs could address issues like inequality, mobility, and declining birth rates, while also improving quality of life.
• Role of Realtors: Real estate professionals and associations could play a pivotal role in advocating for deregulation to increase housing supply and affordability.
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Check out Bryan's amazing graphic novel: Build Baby Build: The Science and Ethics of Housing Regulation
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Episode Summary:
In this episode, Rob and Greg tackle the latest developments in the housing market and its broader implications for real estate professionals. From dissecting the DOJ’s recent moves to exploring how transactions and home prices define market strength, the duo brings sharp insights and engaging commentary to these critical topics.
Discussion Highlights:
• DOJ’s Statement of Interest: What it means for buyer agreements and competition in the real estate market.
• Market Metrics Debate: Rob questions whether housing market health should be based on transactions and sales volume rather than just home prices.
• Affordability and Transactions: The ongoing challenges of affordability and declining transaction volumes in shaping the housing landscape.
• Broker Challenges: Navigating regulatory uncertainties and adapting to evolving DOJ scrutiny.
• Future Predictions: Speculating on the DOJ’s next steps and potential impacts on real estate practices.
Key Takeaways:
• The DOJ aims to promote competition, with specific attention on transparency and buyer agreements.
• Home prices and transaction volumes tell different stories about market strength.
• Brokers and agents face significant uncertainty as they adapt to legal and market changes.
• The need for consumer awareness and transparency remains central to the evolving real estate industry.
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Episode Summary:
In this timely episode In this timely episode (recorded Monday, November 25), Rob and Greg dive deep into the DOJ’s recent statement of interest in the Burnett settlement. They break down the key points raised, including the potential antitrust concerns surrounding the requirement for buyers to sign agreements before home tours and the broader implications for real estate brokers and agents.
The discussion highlights:
• The DOJ’s clarification that compliance with the NAR settlement does not shield brokers or agents from future antitrust actions.
• Concerns about how the buyer agreement provision could stifle competition and negatively impact consumers.
• Speculation on the DOJ’s broader strategy and its potential impact on real estate practices, including commissions and agent-broker dynamics.
• The challenges brokers face in navigating conflicting legal and regulatory signals.
Key Takeaways:
• Brokers and agents must carefully navigate the evolving legal landscape, balancing compliance with the settlement and potential DOJ actions.
• The DOJ’s intervention signals its readiness to continue scrutinizing real estate practices, including beyond the terms of the settlement.
• Transparency and adaptability will be critical for real estate professionals moving forward.
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Vendor Alley: DOJ files eleventh hour statement of interest in Sitzer/Burnett Case
Rob’s Substack: A Look at the DOJ's Statement re: NAR Settlement
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In this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg dive into the latest developments in the real estate world, focusing on leadership, membership dynamics, and the challenges facing NAR in 2024. They engage in a spirited debate about leadership priorities, assessing Nykia Wright’s tenure as CEO, and what it takes to steer an organization during turbulent times.
Key Takeaways
• Leadership Dynamics: A breakdown of the responsibilities and criticisms of Nykia Wright’s first year as CEO of NAR.
• Membership Retention: Insights into how NAR has managed to retain members despite controversies and lawsuits.
• Strategic Decisions: Examining the impact of the $2 billion broker club’s fallout and the decisions leading up to it.
• Action vs. Inaction: Rob and Greg debate what constitutes effective leadership and the significance of visible actions vs. behind-the-scenes work.
• Surveys & Communication: The role of member surveys and communication in understanding and addressing organizational challenges.
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Greg just landed back home from NAR Boston and Rob is curious to what insights he learned. Greg’s main insight is that he isn’t as young as he once was.
1. Election Impact on Real Estate:
• Rob and Greg delve into the recent election results, exploring how potential changes in government could impact HUD and real estate policies.
• Debate on the future leadership of HUD and the potential impacts on the industry.
2. National Association of Realtors (NAR) Conference Recap:
• Greg shares insights from the recent NAR conference, touching on the atmosphere post-election and key sessions he attended.
• Discussion about attendee sentiment, especially regarding political and economic concerns within the real estate industry.
3. MLS (Multiple Listing Service) & CCP Discussions:
• The episode dives deep into the complexities of MLS structures, with Greg suggesting a “domino effect” that could lead to significant industry shifts if CCP (Clear Cooperation Policy) and co-mingling rules were altered.
• Speculations on Zillow’s role in the MLS space, its motivations, and how upcoming changes might benefit or challenge existing MLS structures.
4. NAR’s Controversial Communication:
• The hosts criticize NAR’s handling of sensitive topics, including CCP discussions, arguing for more transparency and authenticity in its public communications.
5. MLS Independence and Potential Changes:
• Rob and Greg discuss the possibility and challenges of MLS organizations operating independently of NAR.
• Debate around whether separating from NAR could lead to more effective and regionally responsive MLS services.
6. Event Announcements:
• Promotion of the upcoming “MLS Reset Conference” in Arizona (January 2025), organized by Greg and colleagues, aimed at exploring the future of MLS and real estate industry evolution and the Clariety25 Conference in February.
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Operating Cash Flow for REA Group (Australia) from Mike Deplete
How much does U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development in the United States pay?
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Episode Overview
Rob and Greg explore how the upcoming election could reshape the real estate industry, focusing on regulatory impacts, DOJ actions, and antitrust issues. They also discuss potential changes to industry practices and transparency in agent behavior.
Key Topics
1. Election Predictions:
• Friendly wager on election outcomes, with predictions on how results could shift real estate policies, especially through DOJ and FTC actions.
2. Antitrust Settlement and NAR Challenges:
• Tanya Monestier’s objections to the recent antitrust settlement, highlighting concerns over consumer confusion and potential loopholes that could benefit attorneys over consumers.
3. Future of Industry Regulation:
• Speculation on how political shifts might influence NAR’s regulatory environment and broker responsibilities.
• The potential for new, transparent compensation practices led by industry figures like James Dwiggins.
4. Ethics and Agent Behavior:
• Debate over real estate agent intentions, balancing consumer interests with profit motives, and the industry’s response to Monestier’s critiques.
Key Takeaways
• Election’s Influence on Real Estate: Election outcomes may bring regulatory changes, with possible implications for NAR and antitrust enforcement.
• Transparency and Trust in Agent Practices: Increased focus on clear buyer agreements and ethical practices to protect consumer trust.
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Overview:
Rob and Greg talk with Jack Miller, CEO of T360, about the recently released “Opportunity Report” and its significance for the real estate industry. The discussion focuses on how real estate leaders can navigate current challenges and seize opportunities in the face of regulatory changes, declining transaction volume, and industry consolidation.
Key Topics:
1. The Opportunity Report:
• A newly released report from T360, available for free at theopportunityreport.com.
• Provides a 100-page analysis of risks and opportunities in the real estate industry.
• Includes insights from over 50 industry leaders on how to approach challenges in the current market.
2. The Role of the MLS:
• Jack emphasizes the importance of the MLS as a marketing and data platform, even without mandatory compensation rules.
• MLS consolidation is expected, with strong MLSs providing more value to their users.
3. Legal and Regulatory Pressures:
• The real estate industry is under scrutiny from the DOJ and faces multiple lawsuits.
• These challenges present an opportunity for brokerages and MLSs to innovate and improve transparency.
4. Future of Associations:
• Jack discusses the potential for separating MLS and Realtor associations and restructuring governance.
• Associations need to adapt and provide more value beyond just MLS access to remain relevant.
5. Opportunities in a Challenging Market:
• Jack urges leaders to lean into change and view the current market as a chance to innovate and grow.
• The report highlights that companies that embrace change during tough times can emerge stronger.
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Reach Out:
Jack Miller on LinkedIN
Download the Opportunity Report at theopportunityreport.com.
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In the latest episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg venture into a thought-provoking discussion about disaster preparedness and self-reliance. While they typically focus on real estate, this episode broadens the scope, offering practical insights on how to be ready for unexpected emergencies like natural disasters or social unrest.
Rob, who has fully embraced the prepper lifestyle, breaks down the importance of planning for short-term disasters, emphasizing the need for essential supplies like water, food, and basic medical skills. Rather than “bugging out” or fleeing, he encourages listeners to “bug in” — stay at home and rely on their community to survive. He also highlights the critical role of knowing your neighbors, as they can become your greatest resource in a crisis.
This episode offers valuable advice on building self-sufficiency, from securing food and water to handling emergency situations and even touches on the significance of physical fitness during a crisis. Greg engages Rob with questions that bring out relatable and practical tips for urban and suburban listeners alike.
Whether you’re curious about survival strategies or just want to hear some down-to-earth insights on real-world preparedness, this episode is packed with useful takeaways.
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LifeStraw - Personal Water Filter for Hiking
Children and teens are more liking to die from guns than anything else.
Israeli Battle Dressing Compression Bandage
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It seems everyone in the industry is still obsessed with CCP. Rob and Greg are no different. The show starts off with Rob giving Greg some advice on his upcoming client meetings, but quickly shifts to the recent back and forth about CCP. Greg thinks that industry players like Compass CEO Robert Reffkin to stop spreading misinformation about MLS. Rob says there is blame on both sides. Things get interesting from there.
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Many people don't know or understand NAR's PDAP. PDAP stands for Participant Data Access Policy. And PDAP is at the heart of today's episode.
Rob and Greg dive deep into the topic of who actually owns MLS data. The answer, as it turns out, really depends on who you ask. But we’re living in a new world where private MLS ownership is becoming a reality, and also what are those second order consquences? Greg also catches up with Rob about Rob's meetings with brokers and their opinions on MLS data ownership—spoiler alert: they think they do. It’s a thought-provoking discussion that may raise more questions than answers.
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Section 18. Right of Participant to MLS Data Feed of Listing Content (Policy Statement
Rob's latest Substack : Why the Data Ownership Thing Worries Me
South Park Human Centipede Episode
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After missing a recording last week (due to travel schedules) the boys are back with another jammed pack episode of Industry Relations. In this week’s episode Rob and Greg discuss recent Blueprint conference in Las Vegas, CMLS 2024 in Seattle and REColorado new subscriber agreement. And they sprinkle a little CCP talking points just for good measure.
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Pictures of Greg’s sister, Pilar, winning her own award
Pictures of Greg presenting at CMLS 2024
HousingWire post on REColorado acquisition
Greg’s take on Rob Reffkin’s CMLS 2024 interview
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On this episode of Industry Relations Rob and Greg discuss, for what seems to be the 17th time, the current rumors about the Clear Cooperation Policy. Rob recently posted a few thoughts on the subject and a few solutions to what seems to have the entire industry tied up in knots. What they soon realize, there are no easy answers.
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Rob and Greg are back to their regularly scheduled broadcast! The episode includes discussion on Landian, the new “a la carte” brokerage launched by Josh Sitzer, yes, that Sitzer. Rob discusses his recent Sub Stack post on “Amara’s Law and Real Estate” and how we shouldn’t read too much in to how things are going with the NAR settlement. The boys also discuss online dating, new business models, capitalism and agent count. But somehow they bring it all together.
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Greg joins Rob from Chicago where he was attending NAR's iOi Summit. Greg gives his experience of being at the iOi Summit and discusses the pitch battle and his favorite new app, Tuesday, and its founder Cole Boyer who won "Crowd Favorite".
They go on to discuss NAR's decision to appoint Nykia Wright as their new CEO and if experience in organized real estate or connections in Washington D.C. really matter. As you can imgaine Greg and Rob have different opinions.
They finish with discussing the ongoing rumors of the fate of Clear Cooperation Policy (CCP), a.k.a. "The Ocho". It's a fun one!
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