It’s our CMLS Conference Pre-Show Podcast! In an effort to curb the rampant growth of Coming Soon listings, NAR’s Multiple Listing Issues and Policies Committee has issued a proposal to clarify the Clear Cooperation Policy. But will the guidelines actually put an end to pocket listings? Are the rules a good compromise? Or should the MLS die on the hill of all-or-nothing, requiring members to list there first?
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg discuss NAR’s draft MLS Policy Statement 8.0, exploring whether the guidelines go far enough in preventing exclusive listings. Rob explains why the 24-hour submission window and the concession around office exclusives are a problem, arguing that the MLS must take a stand NOW to establish itself as the primary marketplace for property listings.
Greg challenges Rob’s view that the MLS is not already the primary marketplace, applauding the 24-hour window as a reasonable and clever compromise and arguing that pocket listings are a breach of fiduciary duty. Listen in to understand Rob’s proposal to extend the all-in IDX rules to MLS membership as a whole and consider how Policy Statement 8.0 will (or will not) impact the pocket listing strategies employed by large national brokerages.
What’s Discussed:
Rob’s take that NAR MLS Policy 8.0 doesn’t go far enough
Whether the MLS is the marketplace or a data repository
The potential confusion around one-to-one communication
What does and does not qualify as marketing under 8.0
Greg’s view of the 24-hour window as a clever compromise
How Rob defines a primary marketplace as first-in-time
Greg’s challenge that 70% of deals qualifies as ‘primary’
Why Greg sees pocket listings as a code of ethics issue
Extending IDX all-in rules to MLS membership as a whole
How exclusive listings benefit large national brokerages
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
MLS Technology and Emerging Issues Advisory Board
Rob’s Post on MLS Policy Statement 8.0
Sam Debord’s Response to Rob’s Post
Rob’s Follow Up Post on MLS Policy Statement 8.0
NAR 2019 Home Buyers and Sellers Generational Trends Report
2019 Zillow Group Consumer Housing Trends Report
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Tremors, in and of themselves, cause minimal damage. But sometimes those tremors are the precursor to something a whole lot bigger. Organized real estate is ripe with these little shakeups, and whether you’re a brokerage, franchiser, vendor, portal or agent, the Tinder-ization of everything WILL impact your business. It’s already changing the way we generate leads and may very well eliminate outbound marketing as a viable option.
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg discuss a few of the current tremors making waves in organized real estate, starting with the new FCC rule allowing mobile carriers to block unknown callers. They explain how the iOS 13 update might impact lead generation and why inbound and content marketing will become crucial in light of these changes.
Rob goes on to explore how the death of outbound marketing could make agent teams that much more important and challenges the idea that agents working with teams qualify as independent contractors under California Assembly Bill 5. Listen in for Greg’s insight around how high agent turnover impacts the way SaaS vendors do business and learn why nimbleness and brand recognition are key to survival in the real estate space.
What’s Discussed:
The new FCC rule allowing mobile carriers to block unknown callers
How the iOS 13 update will impact lead generation in real estate
Greg’s insight around the value of inbound + content marketing
How the death of outbound marketing will make agent teams even more important
The distinction between independent contracts and employees in California AB-5
Rob’s argument that team leads qualify as employers under AB-5
How 30% agent churn impacts the way real estate vendors do business
Why SaaS companies in real estate must focus on customer experience
The idea that every day is Day One in establishing brand recognition
Why being nimble is the key to survival in the real estate industry
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
REALTORS with Guns Facebook Group
Rob’s Interview with Chris Drayer
FCC Rule on Blocking Unknown Callers
Chris Drayer’s Post on the Death of Lead Gen
Our Sponsors:
Fight! Fight! Fight!
We’ve always been told that people love it when Rob and Greg argue. If that true, then we have one of the best Industry Relations Show ever!
With Inman Connect Las Vegas on the horizon, Rob and Greg are facing off over the trend toward exclusive listings and the new Redfin-Opendoor partnership. What does the development of in-house listing programs mean for the industry? And how will the joint venture with Opendoor impact RedfinNow? Our intrepid hosts have very different answers to these questions.
On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg are discussing the impact of systematic coming soon listings. Rob makes the argument that widespread adoption will take down the MLS, moving residential real estate to the commercial model. Greg makes the case that pocket listings are nothing new and challenges the idea that the MLS will become a ‘dumping ground’ for properties that haven’t sold privately.
Rob and Greg also weigh in on the new partnership between Redfin and Opendoor. Listen in for Greg’s insight around why the collaboration is a genius move that benefits both parties and learn why Rob sees it as a huge concession on Redfin’s part—a concession that will eliminate their own iBuyer operations in each and every Opendoor market.
What’s Discussed:
What Rob & Greg are looking forward to most at Inman Connect
Greg’s criticism of Rob’s recent posts on RealScout’s Buyer Graph
Rob’s argument that coming soon programs will take down the MLS
Greg’s counter that exclusive listings are not a new phenomenon
How residential real estate may be moving to a commercial model
Greg’s take on the brilliance of the Redfin & Opendoor partnership
How the new partnership with Opendoor will impact RedfinNow
Rob’s view of the partnership as a concession on the part of Redfin
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Our Sponsors:
Traditional brokerages got 99 problems. They’ve got to compete with iBuyers. They’ve got to compete with 100% commission models. They’ve got to innovate new products and services. They’ve got to figure out a way to make money off those products and services. And they’ve got to worry about potential industry regulations and the insane amount of capital flowing in to would-be disruptors. So, what can brokerages do to address the fundamental flaws in the traditional model—and survive the next five years?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the top issues traditional brokerages face and what they can do about it. They address the implications around Compass’ renewed focus on product and Wall Street analyst John Campbell’s comments regarding the tipping point Realogy and other traditional brokerages face.
Rob and Greg weigh in on the fact that brokerages LOSE money on top producers and the challenge of monetizing products and services for agents. Listen in for insight around the future of traditional models like that of Realogy and RE/MAX and learn how agents and brokerages might adapt to the disruptions facing the real estate industry.
What’s Discussed:
The public interest argument for representing the buyer’s side
The implications around Compass’ renewed focus on product
John Campbell’s comments on the tipping point Realogy faces
The issues around productivity in a traditional brokerage model
Why brokers need to make money through products + services
How brokerage iBuyer initiatives are really listing lead programs
Why Upstream doesn’t address the problems brokers face now
The fundamental flaws in the traditional brokerage model
The future of Realogy, RE/MAX, Redfin, eXp and Home Services
What agents might do in a world with 60% iBuyer market share
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Gradually … Then, Suddenly! Podcast
The Tom Ferry Podcast Experience
Glenn Kelman on Scratch That EP010
‘Is a Compass IPO Coming Soon?’ in Inman
John Campbell’s Comments in MarketWatch
The DOJ’s Scrutiny of Cooperating Compensation on IR EP035
Rob’s Future of Brokerage Black Paper
Industry Relations has just been nominated by Inman News Innovator award under the INNOVATIVE VIDEO/PODCAST SHOW category! Thanks for everyone’s support!
And now on with the show....
When Moehrl v. NAR was introduced in March, the industry response was largely… meh. Then in April, the Department of Justice reached out to the top MLS platform vendor, requiring documents and testimony about MLS data—with a specific focus on cooperating compensation. What is the DOJ likely to find? How might this information impact the class action suit? And what does it all mean for the real estate industry as a whole?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the Civil Investigative Demand (CID) CoreLogic recently received from the DOJ. They address the possibility of getting compensation data in the absence of a search feature on the MLS and predict whether the DOJ will find buyer-steering to be a widespread phenomenon.
Rob offers his take on why a directive requiring the disclosure of sold information would be more likely than new regulations, and Greg speculates that the industry is unlikely to stand by while the government eliminates cooperating compensation. Listen in to understand how the plaintiff attorneys in Moehrl v. NAR might use the DOJ’s findings and learn why organized real estate needs to take the lawsuit seriously.
What’s Discussed:
The Civil Investigative Demand CoreLogic received from the DOJ
Getting compensation data without a feature search on the MLS
What a DOJ study demonstrating buyer steering might achieve
Why disclosure of sold info is more likely than new regulations
How many brokers + agents script for the commission question
How DOJ findings might be used by attorneys in Moehrl v. NAR
How the Canadian Competition Bureau handled this issue
The potential impact of eliminating cooperating compensation
How it could take up to 10 years to resolve the class action case
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
Rob’s Post on CoreLogic & the DOJ
Rob’s 2015 Post on the NBER Study
Randy Ora’s Live Listing Presentation
Rob’s Post on the Brookings Institute Panel
Rob and Greg have often said that Redfin is the most important tech-centric brokerage that no one is talking about. Well, that is about to change with the company’s unveiling of Redfin Direct, a service allowing consumers to buy properties without representation. What’s behind Glenn Kelman’s move to give customers another ‘layer of choice’? And how might the real estate industry respond?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit, from Rich Barton to Gary Keller to John Peyton. They describe the pervasive nature of brokerages talking strategically about competing with iBuyers and tech as well as the buzz around Art Carter’s call for a new type of organizational structure around the MLS.
Greg speaks to the way ‘GFK’ won the room at T3 with his humor and authenticity, and Rob asks about the impetus behind Redfin Direct and how the industry might respond. Listen in for insight around how the program puts Redfin on the radar in a way it hasn’t been before and learn how Redfin Direct might work in conjunction with Redfin Now and the brokerage’s title and mortgage programs.
What’s Discussed:
Greg’s insight on the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit
Art Carter’s call for a new type of MLS organizational structure
The pervasive nature of brokerages addressing iBuyers + tech
How Glenn Kelman ‘won the room’ with his authenticity at T3
The stark contrast between Redfin and Compass’ mission
Greg’s take on Redfin Direct + the potential industry response
The impetus behind Redfin Direct and how it was announced
How Redfin Direct supports its title + mortgage programs
How Redfin Direct puts the company on the industry’s radar
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Resources:
Mike Simonsen, Rob Hahn & Gahlord Dewald Talk Millennials
Glenn Kelman on Listing Bits EP045
‘Redfin Direct Offers’ on Bubble Info
Andrea Riquier’s Interview with Rob on MarketWatch
Our Sponsors:
Rob and Greg have often said that Redfin is the most important tech-centric brokerage that no one is talking about. Well, that is about to change with the company’s unveiling of Redfin Direct, a service allowing consumers to buy properties without representation. What’s behind Glenn Kelman’s move to give customers another ‘layer of choice’? And how might the real estate industry respond?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit, from Rich Barton to Gary Keller to John Peyton. They describe the pervasive nature of brokerages talking strategically about competing with iBuyers and tech as well as the buzz around Art Carter’s call for a new type of organizational structure around the MLS.
Greg speaks to the way ‘GFK’ won the room at T3 with his humor and authenticity, and Rob asks about the impetus behind Redfin Direct and how the industry might respond. Listen in for insight around how the program puts Redfin on the radar in a way it hasn’t been before and learn how Redfin Direct might work in conjunction with Redfin Now and the brokerage’s title and mortgage programs.
What’s Discussed:
Greg’s insight on the big players who spoke at the T3 Summit
Art Carter’s call for a new type of MLS organizational structure
The pervasive nature of brokerages addressing iBuyers + tech
How Glenn Kelman ‘won the room’ with his authenticity at T3
The stark contrast between Redfin and Compass’ mission
Greg’s take on Redfin Direct + the potential industry response
The impetus behind Redfin Direct and how it was announced
How Redfin Direct supports its title + mortgage programs
How Redfin Direct puts the company on the industry’s radar
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Resources:
Mike Simonsen, Rob Hahn & Gahlord Dewald Talk Millennials
Glenn Kelman on Listing Bits EP045
‘Redfin Direct Offers’ on Bubble Info
Andrea Riquier’s Interview with Rob on MarketWatch
Our Sponsors:
To this point, we assumed that the iBuyer model would target homeowners willing to pay for convenience and that the average consumer would continue to employ a real estate agent—and earn more money for their patience. But Zillow’s Q4 numbers reflect that homeowners can actually make MORE selling to the platform than they would with a realtor. So, how does this information impact the potential market share of iBuyers moving forward? And how will it affect the way agents do business?
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing the change in leadership at Zillow, debating the company’s performance under Spencer Rascoff and Richard Barton’s motivation to return as CEO. They explore the possibility of a merger between Opendoor and Zillow, uniting the former’s mastery of workflow with the latter’s proficiency at lead flow.
Rob and Greg also speak to Redfin’s potential to adopt the iBuyer model and the way of thinking shared by Redfin and Opendoor. Listen in to understand the full implications of Zillow’s Q4 iBuyer unit economics learn how the iBuyer market may impact the industry in light of this new information.
What’s Discussed:
Barton’s motivation to return to Zillow as CEO
Zillow’s performance under Rascoff’s leadership
Opendoor’s complementary mastery of workflow
Zillow’s hiring of Arik Prawer to run iBuyer operations
The shared philosophy between Redfin and Opendoor
The implications of Zillow’s Q4 iBuyer unit economics
How iBuyer unit economics may impact realtors
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
‘Homeowners Net More Selling to Zillow Than with a REALTOR’ in Notorious ROB
‘Spencer Rascoff Out as CEO of Zillow’ in Vendor Alley
Mike DelPrete’s Presentation at Inman Connect
Our Sponsors:
Gary Keller made a series of very bold claims when he announced the launch of the new KW tech platform at January’s Family Reunion conference, even going so far as to say that ‘the race to build the first end-to-end real estate platform is over and everyone else is competing for second place.’
Today, Rob and Greg are discussing Keller’s comments, questioning the decision to set the bar so high and sharing Brian Boero’s take on Keller’s hubris as that of a master showman rallying the troops. Rob asks how we might measure the success of the KW tech platform and how much big-time investments in tech truly impact agent productivity.
Rob and Greg also explore the idea that introducing new tech serves to ‘stop the bleeding,’ keeping agents and agent teams from leaving for tech centric brokerages like eXp. Listen in for insight around the performance of traditional brokerages that put big money in tech and learn why Rob believes the industry should stop fighting the last war and shift its focus to capital.
What’s Discussed:
The hype around the launch of the Keller Williams consumer app
Boero’s take that Keller’s hubris is necessary to ‘rally the troops’
How we might measure the success of the KW tech platform
The dismal numbers reported in Realogy’s recent earnings call
How much tech investments truly impact realtor productivity
Why Rob believes the industry needs to focus on capital vs. tech
KW’s potential to systematize agent marketing through software
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Resources:
2019 Clareity MLS Executive Workshop
‘Gary, Put Down the Bong’ in Vendor Alley
‘Gary Keller Declares Victory in Real Estate Tech Platform Race’ in Inman
‘Please Stop Fighting the Last War’ in Notorious ROB
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At Inman Connect, the top movers and shakers in real estate come together to learn about the latest technology and explore what’s next for the industry. And in 2019, the hot topics include disruptors like Compass and eXp, the impact of data aggregators on the MLS, and the relevance of franchisers in light of tech centric startup brokerages. So, what are the most interesting conversations happening at the conference this year? And what SHOULD we be talking about?
Today, Rob and Greg are sharing the highlights of Inman & CEO Connect (live from the lobby of the Marriott Marquis), discussing how the conference focuses on the intersection of real estate and technology and what predictions Inman has gotten right over the years. They speak to Brad Inman’s interview with Rob Reffkin, Ben Kinney’s talk knocking brands like Compass and eXp, and the conversation among brokers, franchisers and tech company CEOs regarding the MLS. Rob asks why no one is talking about Redfin, and Greg predicts when the industry will recognize it as a significant force.
Then Rob and Greg snag Sam DeBord, Managing Broker and VP of Strategic Growth for Coldwell Banker Danforth in Seattle, to get his take on Kinney’s advice to brokers and the research around stock options and franchise loyalty. Listen in to understand why franchises need to make their value offerings more obvious and easy to use—and learn why Greg believes the mortgage space is ripe for disruption.
What’s Discussed:
The highlights of the Inman Connect conference in NYC
How technology has (and has not) impacted real estate
Brad Inman’s interview with Rob Reffkin at CEO Connect
Ben Kinney’s criticisms of brands like Compass and eXp
When the industry will recognize Redfin as a significant force
The talk among brokers and tech CEOs around the MLS
The tech community’s struggle re: cooperation and compensation
How Inman called the rise of the iBuyer model
Kinney’s advice to brokers on prepping agents for a market shift
Sam’s insight on the research around stock options and loyalty
Why franchises need to make value offerings easy to use
Why the mortgage space is ripe for disruption
Connect with Sam:
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Resources:
When Software Eats the Real (Estate) World
We know that Compassis built around technology and that the real estate company has a shit ton of money—$4.4B, to be exact. But what else do we know about the tools and resources Compass offers its agents or the direction the company might take moving forward? Lucky for us, the firm’s most recent vision statementwas published online, and while it was incredibly inspiring, the presentation also raised a number of questions.
Rob and Greg welcome special guest Sunny Lake Hahn, partner at 7DS Associates, to offer a broker’s perspective as they discuss the Compass vision statement. Greg offers an overview of the presentation, covering the suite of products and services that Compass offers their agents and CEO Robert Reffkin’s inspiring personal story and message of empowerment. Sunny explains why she was impressed by the company’s COO offering for agents as well as their technology feedback loop.
Rob, Greg and Sunny debate whether Compass can provide a consistent user experience, describing how the company does offer continuity in terms of tools, resources and consumer-agent interaction. Greg shares his take on why wooing agents with a payout might be problematic, and Rob speaks to Compass’ potential play to generate revenue through preferred vendors. Listen in for Sunny’s perspective of Reffkin’s emphasis on female entrepreneurs and learn more about what differentiates Compass—and what makes it just like all the other brokerages.
What’s Discussed:
Compass’ strategic decision to publish their vision statement
The suite of products and services Compass offers their agents
CEO Robert Reffkin’s inspiring personal story and message
Sunny’s insight on the value of Compass’ tech feedback loop
Compass’ contract provision around using the tools provided
Why Compass cannot guarantee a consistent user experience
How Compass can provide continuity in terms of resources
Greg’s take on why wooing agents with a payout is problematic
The potential for Compass to leverage the ‘referral economy’
Sunny’s view of Reffkin’s message on female entrepreneurs
Sunny’s idea for brokers to execute on the COO offering locally
Resources:
Glenn Kellman’s Gender Pay Study
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Look into your crystal ball and ask about the future of real estate. A venture capitalist’s vision of the industry eliminates agents entirely in favor of the data a tech company can provide. A number of brokers are hoping to go back to the future and once again serve as the gatekeepers for real estate listings. Meanwhile UpstreamRE can’t seem to get a clear picture of its future at all. Will software ‘eat the real (estate) world’ as the recent a16z video suggests? Will brokerages find a way to regain control of their listings? Will UpstreamRE ever nail down an objective?
Rob and Greg start their review of recent real estate news with a discussion of the humbling Andreessen Horowitz video exposing the obvious flaws in organized real estate. They cover Alex Rampell’s argument against the narrative of agent as ‘trusted advisor’ and his thesis that metrics will eventually replace agents. Rob describes how technology might impact the future number of real estate agents and how much consumers will be willing to pay for guidance from a professional.
Greg shares his frustration with the ‘obvious BS’ surrounding UpstreamRE’s breakup with NAR, offering his take on why the alliance didn’t work and the new narrative around the company’s purpose. Rob and Greg both deliver their predictions regarding who UpstreamRE’s new vendor might be and how MLS providers may view the project’s latest pivot. Listen in for insight into the futility of broker efforts to regain control of listings and learn why UpstreamRE’s new vendor may want to ask for their money up front!
What’s Discussed:
The Andreessen Horowitz video on organized real estate
Alex Rampell’s argument against the ‘trusted advisor’
The prediction that metrics and data will replace agents
Mike Delprete’s insight on loss aversion in transactions
Money and partnerships vs. execution in tech startups
The impact of tech on the number of real estate agents
Why UpstreamRE’s partnership with NAR didn’t work
The new narrative around UpstreamRE’s objectives
Rob & Greg’s predictions re: UpstreamRE’s new vendor
How MLS providers may view UpstreamRE’s latest pivot
The futility of broker efforts to regain control of listings
Resources:
When Software Eats the Real (Estate) World
The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answersby Ben Horowitz
Who Is Michael Ovitz?by Michael Ovitz
Mike Delprete on Loss Aversion
New York Times Financial Crisis 2019 Article
The Red Dot
Connect with Rob and Greg:
We can all agree that the real estate industry is evolving quickly. Is there any way to predict who the winners in the space will be over the next few years? Brad Safalow has done nine years of research surveying hundreds of real estate agents on the housing market in general, online lead generation, marketing and technology. Curious what all that data might tell us about the future of industry players like Zillow, Redfin and Realogy? What about the potential market share of the growing iBuyer model? Or how independent brokerages might respond to the competition?
Brad is the founder of Please Act Accordingly Research, an independent research firm providing investment ideas to professional money managers and high-net-worth individuals. He began his career in the leveraged finance group at JPMorgan before joining RiverEdge Capital, a global equity hedge fund, where he specialized in small/mid cap stocks and short idea generation. Brad has been serving clients through PAA since 2009, generating 6+ action-oriented investment ideas annually, with high absolute return potential.
Today, Brad joins Rob and Greg to share a high-level overview of his report on the real estate industry. Brad shares his take on the challenges Zillow is facing with the backlash against Premier Agent 4 and its foray into the iBuyer market. Rob highlights the concentration of power in real estate and its influence on Zillow’s continued success, and Greg asks about the pros and cons of the iBuyer model and its potential share of the marketplace moving forward. Brad also shares his experience working with Redfin versus a traditional brokerage, and they offer insight around how Redfin’s national ad campaign might prove to be a seminal moment in the industry. Listen in to understand how independent brokerages like Keller Williams and Realogy are responding to the iBuyer threat and a potential shift in commission structure—and get Brad, Rob and Greg’s predictions around the winners and losers in the space over the next three years.
What’s Discussed:
The PAA annual survey of real estate agents
A high-level overview of Brad’s report
The reasons why Zillow’s stock is taking a hit
How Zillow’s growth depends on agent teams
Why Zillow launched Premier Agent 4
How Zillow responded to backlash against PA4
The concentration of power in the industry
Why Zillow is pursuing the iBuyer model
The iBuyer’s potential share of the market
How Zillow may profit as a mortgage business
Efforts to improve the consumer experience
Redfin vs. the traditional brokerage experience
The impact of Redfin’s national ad campaign
The effects a shift in commission structure
The fear/panic among independent brokerages
Gary Keller’s understanding of the iBuyer threat
Realogy’s doubling down on traditional strategy
Resources:
Connect with Brad:
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Perhaps the most compelling piece of theatre in recent real estate history, Gary Keller’s interview at the Inman Connect Conference laid out his argument around the future of the industry. Keller’s approach is to own his own data and develop a software platform unique to Keller Williams, and a number of other franchises are buying up technology companies in order to build their own exclusive data platforms. But is this obsession with technology and controlling the data distracting brokerages and franchisors from what really matters?
Rob and Greg are on the line to discuss real estate technology and data ownership. Greg explains W+R’s focus on creating a kickass experience for agents and consumers alike and describes the company’s approach to aggregating data rather than trying to build a proprietary platform.
Rob and Greg cover the growing competition in real estate software and address who is responsible for providing agents with a technology suite. They debate the merits of designing an exclusive platform versus integrating franchise data with a particular software package to create a custom data solution. Listen in for insight around the US vs. THEM mindset around building technology and learn why Rob and Greg are calling for a renewed focus on agents—and giving them the tools to shine!
What’s Discussed:
The overarching theme of the 2018 Inman Connect conference
Gary Keller’s aim to create his own ‘platform for innovation’
How W+R seeks to democratize the iBuyer experience
The role of AI and machine learning in a technology platform
W+R’s approach to making data useful for the end user
Greg’s take on the notion of data ownership
How Zillow has evolved to generate its own data
W+R’s focus on improving an agent’s listing presentation
Cloud Investor Connect’s value prop for investors
- High intent, high volume
Who is responsible for providing agents with a tech platform
The consistent improvement of real estate software
The opportunity to integrate software with franchise data
The MLSs role as a tech platform vs. data provider
The definition of a technology platform as an end-to-end solution
Rob’s insight around focusing on the agent rather than technology
Sponsors:
Resources:
Inman Connect—San Francisco 2018
Brad Inman’s Tech Platform Opinion Piece
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Today’s consumer is used to pushing a button and having magic happen. (Thank you for the insight Jeremy Waxman.) And more often than not, we are willing to pay an extra fee for things like convenience and certainty. For this reason alone, the iBuyer phenomenon is here to stay, and the real estate industry would do well to consider how traditional agents might participate in the changing market.
Rob and Greg are back to offer a different perspective on the iBuyer movement, discussing how the industry is misunderstanding the phenomenon. Greg explains how organized real estate might address the consumer experience by partnering with a large financial institution to ‘be the bank’ and Rob shares his take on FSBOs and iBuyers as opposite ends of a spectrum—with the traditional REALTOR experience in the middle.
Rob and Greg address fiduciary duty, describing the conflict of interest that occurs when agents have the capacity to make on offer on a prospect’s home. They cover the difference between iBuyers and traditional house flippers, describing the considerable capital behind companies like Offerpad and Opendoor and the significance of Zillow’s recent acquisition of a mortgage lender. Listen in for insight around iBuyers moving into high-dollar markets and learn how agents fit into a future world where iBuyers are the default.
What’s Discussed:
How the industry is misunderstanding the iBuyer phenomenon
How MLS and association execs might consider the agent experience
Greg’s proposal around NAR partnering with a financial institution
Rob’s prediction that the iBuyer movement is here to stay
The conflict of interest agents face in offering to buy a client’s home
Rob’s take on FSBOs and iBuyers as opposite ends of a spectrum
The potential ‘buyification’ of the brokerage business
Why iBuyers are not as vulnerable as traditional house flippers
The significance of Zillow’s acquisition of Mortgage Lenders of America
The tipping point when iBuyers become the default for consumers
The significance of iBuyers moving into high-dollar markets
The value in agents learning to pitch investor offers to sellers
Sponsors:
Resources:
Inman News: Agents can show sellers iBuyer offers with new Cloud CMA feature
Brad Inman: In real estate’s tech platform race, I’m betting on an underdog
Connect with Rob and Greg:
1-2 cha-cha-cha. 3-4 cha-cha-cha. DOJ. NAR. FTC. MLS.
There was a dance of sorts held in DC on Tuesday, June 5, when the Department of Justice and the Federal Trade Commission hosted a ‘workshop’ to discuss competition in residential real estate. But while NAR and industry players prepared for the fox trot, bringing their best arguments for maintaining the status quo around data access, the DOJ put on a little salsa music and shifted the discussion to commission transparency and coupling.
Rob and Greg are reversing roles this week, as Greg spins conspiracy theories regarding the government’s intentions and the potential consequences of its intervention in the real estate industry. They speak to organized real estate’s nothing-to-see-here approach to the discussion and review the range of views shared in the Developments in Real Estate Fee and Service Models panel.
Greg explains why decoupling would effectively end the MLS, and Rob covers the paper prepared by the National Bureau of Economic Research suggesting conflicts of interest due to coupling. They address who would benefit if buy-side commissions went away, how such changes would impact portals like Zillow, and the surprising number of industry players who support decoupling. Listen in to understand why Rob and Greg are calling for NAR or CMLS to move on this and start leading the dance to develop solutions around commission transparency.
What’s Discussed:
Organized real estate’s nothing-to-see-here stance at the DOJ/FTC workshop
The Developments in Real Estate Fee and Service Models panel
Greg’s take that the industry was caught off guard
How decoupling cooperation and compensation would end the MLS
The NBER paperon realtor commissions and conflicts of interest
The theory that real estate commissions are high due to coupling
Rob’s concern that the DOJ has already made up its mind
Why the industry needs to move on commission transparency
Why real estate is the only industry in which the seller pays the buyer’s rep
How the potential changes might impact portals like Zillow
Who would benefit if buy-side commissions went away
The leadership opportunity for NAR, CMLS to address DOJ/FTC concerns
The surprising number of people in support of commission decoupling
Public response to the previous NAR budget transparency discussion
Resources:
DOJ Residential Real Estate Workshop
Rob’s Blog on the DOJ/FTC Workshop
Brian Boero’s Buzz Saw Blog Post
‘Conflicts of Interest and the Realtor Commission Puzzle’
Our Sponsors
Connect with Rob and Greg:
Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
Critics of Zillow bash the accuracy of the Zestimate, but the fact is that a home’s worth hinges on what the market is willing to pay. And with the advent of Instant Offers, Zillow is backing up the Zestimate with a check. Consider the fact that Zillow has a platform to help themselves sell homes quickly and it is easy to see how Instant Offers is a game-changer with the potential to create a ‘market-maker system’ of real estate.
Rob and Greg are back to discuss the recent GeekWirepieceon Zillow’s first home purchase in Chandler, AZ. They comment on the irony of the agent’s intention to lean on Zillow for branding as well as the company’s original business model as an auction site. Rob explains the concept of an insta-flip and how it benefits Premier Agents, and Greg offers his take on the one thing that is still missing from the Instant Offers model.
Rob and Greg speak to Zillow’s data around the number of shoppers in a particular zip code and the target market for the Instant Offers model. They address the potential profit Zillow might generate from Instant Offers, the listing lead flow the program will generate, and the possibility of discounted as-is purchases on the platform. Listen in to understand how Instant Offers is likely to foster competition in the space and learn how Zillow continues to change the game of real estate.
What’s Discussed:
Zillow’s first home purchase in Chandler, AZ
The agent’s intention to lean on Zillow for branding
Greg’s questions around double-ending and fees
How Zillow is creating a ‘market-maker system’ of real estate
Zillow’s original business model as an auction site
The concept of an insta-flip and how it benefits Premier Agents
Greg’s take on what’s still missing from the Instant Offers model
How Zillow’s Instant Offers further validates Opendoor
The target seller for Zillow’s Instant Offers model
How Instant Offers differs from We Buy Ugly Houses
The listing lead flow Zillow will generate through the program
What traditional brokers should do in light of Instant Offers
The potential for a discounted as-is purchase through Zillow
Rob’s insight on the possibility of Zillow offering seller financing
How Instant Offers is likely to foster competition in the space
Resources:
‘An Inside Look at Zillow’s First Home Purchase’ on GeekWire
‘Opendoor is a Bigger Deal Than Zillow’ in Inman
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As Peter Parker will tell you, great power comes with great responsibility. And there is little doubt that NAR has a great deal of power. With Bob Goldberg at the helm, many have anticipated a ‘kinder, gentler NAR,’ an organization that rules with a warm embrace rather than an iron fist—serving its membership with open discussion and greater transparency. Does the recent drama over the dues increase demonstrate a more-of-the-same-old approach from NAR leadership? Or is the perceived crisis around the budget an overreaction? Is there evidence that the culture at NAR is really changing for the better?
Rob and Greg are back in the ring on the heels of the REALTORS midyear legislative meeting, going toe to toe over the recent controversy around NAR spending. They start with an overview of what went down, beginning with the Houston Association of REALTORS opposition piece in Inmanand the subsequent op-ed credited to Jim Harrison of MLSListings. Rob and Greg walk us through the retractions, rebuttals and apologies that followed as well as the board of director’s vote in DC.
Rob offers his take on NAR budget priorities, sharing the questions he has around spending on things like zipLogix, RPR and advertising to protect the REALTOR brand. He goes on to discuss the way NAR handled the spending controversy, framing it as a missed opportunity to embrace opposition as a catalyst for discussion rather than ruling with an iron fist—which may discourage membership from speaking up in the future. Greg offers his defense of NAR, pointing out that the SMART Budget Initiativeis clearly outlined NAR’s website and citing member engagement as an incredibly complex issue. Listen in for Rob’s insight around NAR’s responsibility to its members and decide whether NAR is, indeed, using its power for good.
What’s Discussed:
The Houston Association of REALTORS’ opposition to the dues increase
How the controversial op-ed credited to Jim Harrison went too far
The questions around NAR’s spending on zipLogix, RPR and advertising
The line items Rob would like to see NAR prioritize in its budget
Greg’s perspective that there is no evidence of an NAR crisis
How NAR might have handled the spending controversy differently
NAR’s postponement of the 2.5% annual dues increase
Rob’s take that NAR’s iron fist will discourage others from speaking up
Rob’s concern about the lack of explanation regarding NAR spending
Greg’s defense of NAR as being more transparent than ever before
Rob’s belief that NAR’s power gives them a higher level of responsibility
Resources:
Houston Association of REALTORS Member Survey
HAR’s Dues Increase Opposition Piece in Inman
Rob’s ‘Crisis and Opportunity’ Blog Post
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Email gregrobertson@gmail.com
If Rob and Greg are cute when they fight, then our co-hosts are particularly adorable on this edition of Industry Relations as they take on the current controversy over the new NAR logo: Is #Logogate indicative of an alarming disconnect between NAR leadership and its members? Or did NAR leadership take the appropriate steps to engage constituents in the decision-making process—and it simply didn’t work out?
Today, Rob and Greg begin their discussion with a review of the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation forum in DC on using technology to make real estate more competitive, describing the lack of understanding demonstrated by the moderator and the defensiveness of the industry players on the panel. They go on to address #Logogate, and Rob shares his take that the controversy demonstrates a flaw of governance, while Greg argues that a logo is subjective—and leadership may havesolicited member input during the process.
Rob offers insight on the ‘culture of confidentiality’ he has observed among association leaders, while Greg contends that the current leadership is more transparent and proactive than ever. They wrap up with dialogue on how Zillow may be raising the bar in real estate by entering the iBuyer space, choosing the best of its Premier Agents to represent the company in selling its inventory. Fasten your seatbelt and listen in as Rob and Greg clash on ITIF, #Logogate, and the best agents in real estate!
What’s Discussed:
The recent ITIF forum on using tech to make real estate more competitive
The defensive posture of real estate representatives on the ITIF panel
David Kelley’s focus on broker reaction to competition as opposed to data
Rob’s call for a more collaborative approach vs. playing ‘hide the ball’
The current controversy over the new NAR logo
The disconnect between NAR leadership and its members
Rob’s take that #Logogate is indicative of a larger communication issue
Greg’s view that member engagement is the bigger problem
NAR’s proposed dues increase and assumption of budget approval
Rob’s view on the culture of confidentiality at NAR
How Zillow may ‘raise the bar’ for real estate agents
Greg’s argument that the best real estate agents aren’t on Zillow
Resources:
Information Technology & Innovation Foundation
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Is Zillow getting into the house flipping business to make a profit buying and selling real estate? Of the users who submit an Instant Offer request, one-third sell their home within 90 days—and 10% of that third take an investor’s offer. Zillow’s main play here may just be seller lead generation.
Today, Rob and Greg talk T3, iBuyers and Zillow. Greg shares his takeaways from the T3 conference, including praise for Stefan’s keynote address and an eye-roll over the ‘no corporate sponsors’ sentiment. Our hosts discuss the recent bombshells around Dale’s departure from RPR and Zillow’s expansion of Instant Offers. Rob walks us through the details of Zillow’s announcement, explaining how sellers will now get an offer from Zillow itself when they use the Instant Offers platform. Rob and Greg share surprise at the lack of backlash around the announcement, examining the benefits for an agent representing Zillow as well as the drop in stock price in light of the news.
Greg offers insight on potential abuses of the iBuyer model, considering how predatory lenders might target seniors, the uneducated, or the poor, and they cover the impact of Zillow’s shift on other players in the iBuyer space. Listen in as Rob and Greg address the windfall Zillow is likely to earn in the form of seller leads and learn how the company could solve the affordable housing crisis—and gain invaluable PR in the process!
What’s Discussed:
Greg’s takeaways from T3
The rumors around RPR and Zillow
Zillow’s announcement of the expansion of Instant Offers
The surprising response to Zillow’s plans to flip houses
Greg’s concerns about the iBuyer model
The recent drop in Zillow’s stock price
Why flipping is not a change in Zillow’s business model
The prospect of Zillow making a fortune on seller leads
Greg’s casino analogy for Zillow’s home-flipping venture
Rob’s take on how Zillow could solve affordable housing
Zillow’s impact on other players in the iBuyer space
Resources:
‘Opendoor Founders Subtweet Zillow’s New Home Buying Service’ in Inman
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Would the woes of the real estate industry be resolved if agents were employees rather than independent contractors? At Inman Disconnect, Rob posited that shifting from the 1099 to a W-2 model would give brokers more control and allow them to address several of the fundamental issues in the space, raising the standards of professionalism by eliminating incompetent or toxic agents—without risking their livelihood.
Today, Rob, Greg and Sunny debate Rob’s proposal, discussing the challenges brokers face in mandating trainings and mentoring for new agents who are independent contractors. Greg argues that leadership is at issue rather than employment status, contending that employees and independent contractors alike are only motivated by leaders who inspire buy-in. Rob, Greg and Sunny address the broker’s responsibilities around professionalism in the industry and weigh in on whether or not brokers can afford to fire top producers who are toxic to the business.
Rob breaks down the revenue structure in a brokerage, explaining how the shift to a W-2 model would give brokers more autonomy and abate the head-count-driven model that fuels a lack of professionalism. Listen in as Rob and Greg come to an unprecedented agreement on the role of leadership in raising industry standards and learn how the law firm model—with its division of employee-associates and partners—might be adapted for real estate.
What’s Discussed:
Rob’s proposal that the 1099 is the cause of many industry woes
The history behind the shift to agents as independent contractors
Sonny’s take on the broker’s challenge in mandating trainings
Greg’s argument that the issue is leadership vs. control
The broker’s responsibility around agent professionalism
How great leaders attract great talent
Why it’s difficult for agents to move brokerages
Why brokers are hesitant to fire toxic agents
The breakdown of revenue in a brokerage
How the W-2 structure would give brokers more control
What triggers the head-count-driven model
How the law firm model might be adapted for real estate
Resources:
Connect with Rob and Greg:
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Observe. Orient. Decide. Act.
The OODA loop is a tool for decision-making developed by military strategist John Boyd. At the Inman Disconnect Conference in Palm Springs, organizers focused on the Orient piece of the process, collaborating with attendees to design a set of principles to govern the industry moving forward. The question becomes, how might those principles influence decision-making in real estate? And will such a manifesto inspire industry players to look inward and take the necessary action?
Today, Rob and Greg debrief the Inman Disconnect Conference, applauding Brad Inman’s investment in engaging the industry. They discuss the history behind the Ahwahnee Principles, a new approach to urban planning developed by mavericks in the space in the 1970’s, and how Brad is working to emulate the design of a similar manifesto for real estate. Rob offers insight around the impact of developing a set of principles and how that might translate to action and policy change moving forward, and Greg explains how big gains can be made by people in a community changing small habits over time. Rob and Greg touch on some of the principles addressed at the conference, including low-income housing and big data. Listen in as they share their top takeaways from Inman Disconnect and how the principles can serve as a device to communicate about the way we do business.
What’s Discussed:
The intent behind the Inman Disconnect Conference
Brad Inman’s investment in engaging the industry
The history behind the Ahwahnee Principles
Brad’s aim to develop a set of principles for real estate
The real estate establishment vs. industry ‘rebels’
The controversial issues discussed at Inman Disconnect
Rob’s insight around the impact of principles
Greg’s take on the impact of small changes
Greg’s view on big data and privacy
How the principles might translate to action
Resources:
The Parker Principles: A Real Estate Manifesto
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Data is the new oil—and the one with the most insight wins.
As technology becomes more and more important to the industry, many brokerages are justifiably concerned that real estate will go the way of travel and eCommerce, eventually doing away with the agent altogether. Gary Keller is uneasy about the current shift from tech-enabled agent to agent-enabled technology, and that is where he is drawing a line in the sand. But his controversial ‘KW First’ solution has a lot of us scratching our heads…
Rob and Greg are camped out in the lobby of the 2018 MLS Executive Workshop to talk about Gary Keller’s polarizing vision speech at the recent Keller Williams’ Family Reunion. They are joined by Sunny Lake, official wrangler of Rob Hahn and partner in charge of brokerage consulting with 7DS Associates. Tim Dain, President of MARIS, the regional MLS serving Greater St. Louis, wanders into the conversation as well.
Rob, Greg and Sunny walk us through the crux of Gary Keller’s speech, explaining his fear of the shift from tech-enabled agent to agent-enabled technology. Rob explains his take that Garry correctly identified the problem but is misguided in his solution to paint real estate vendors and MLSs as ‘unsafe’ and move to control and protect their own data. They discuss the contrasting ‘better together’ approach being taken by Re/Max and Realogy, addressing why KW would be better served to embrace other players in the fight against agent-enable technology, and Tim explains why the MLS cannot legally ‘sell out’ brokerage data to platforms like Zillow without their permission. Listen in for debate around how much of Gary’s speech may have been theatre meant to ‘rally the troops’ and how his message might impact the upcoming DOJ/FTC talks on real estate data.
What’s Discussed:
Gary Keller’s polarizing vision speech
The pressure on brokerages as profit margins continue to shrink
Rob’s take that Gary identified the problem but misidentified the cause
How much of Gary’s speech was theatre to ‘rally the troops’
Why KW won’t be able to do predictive analytics
Agent hesitation to share data with the brokerage
Why KW’s ‘go it alone’ approach is misguided
Re/Max’s acquisition of booj
Tim’s insight around the legal restrictions on ‘selling out’ data
The ‘open platform’ approach of Realogy, Re/Max
The fantastic culture at Keller Williams
How Gary’s speech might impact the upcoming DOJ/FTC talks
Resources:
“Did KW Just Say FU to Vendors?” on Vendor Alley
“In Which Keller Williams Completely Confuses Me” on The Notorious ROB
“The Keller Williams Vision Speech: Followup and Further Thoughts” on The Notorious ROB
“Keller Williams Sheds ‘Traditional Broker’ Shell for New Data-Driven Model” in Inman
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After seven months in office as CEO of the National Association of REALTORS, Bob Goldberg has made some bold moves with regard to AMP and RESO-compliance. He’s also scored big on Capitol Hill, lobbying last-minute changes to the tax reform bill. And he’s cut the NAR budget by 20% and made some significant staffing changes. But should we be celebrating Bob as a change agent just yet?
Rob and Greg come to you live from the 2018 MLS Executive Workshop in Scottsdale to argue both sides. Yes, Bob has done more in seven months that we have seen from NAR leadership in quite some time, but there is a low bar for change in the association world. The scope of Bob’s success depends on your basis for comparison, and as you may have guessed, our hosts have very different takes on the issue.
Rob and Greg take on other hot topics in real estate as well, covering the major challenges in making Upstream work, the upcoming Department of Justice and Federal Trade Commission workshops around real estate data, and how a set of national standards would impact vendors. Listen in for Rob’s take on potential government mandates and Greg’s insight on the ‘holy grail’ of real estate tech—marrying data standards with permission to sell.
What’s Discussed:
Bob Goldberg’s bold moves as NAR CEO
The low bar for change in the association world
How NAR dodged a bullet with Trump’s tax reform
How the governance model affects the pace of change
How cutting the NAR budget by 20% may impact jobs
The standardization required for Upstream to work
The challenges around MLS vendors and unfunded mandates
The upcoming DOJ/FTC workshops re: real estate data
Rob’s take on making RESO standards law
Greg’s insight on how national standards would impact vendors
Marrying standards in real estate data with permission to sell
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What’s in store for the real estate industry moving forward into 2018?
Some might consider this a supplement to Rob's article on Inman News, 7 predictions 2018: Disco Fever. But it was recorded before the article was published. In this episode Rob and Greg try their hand at anticipating what’s ahead, offering predictions around the outlook for the MLS, Bob Goldberg and the NAR, the housing market, brokerages, technology and the culture of the industry. They begin with the ‘Blame the MLS’ debate caused by Bob’s response to the Inman Upstream article and Greg’s subsequent South Park blog post. Next, they offer an overview of leadership changes among major industry players and work through the big mystery surrounding RE/MAX’s failure to report Q3 earnings.
Rob and Greg speak to Facebook’s entry into real estate, discussing the differences between the social media powerhouse and Zillow as well as the potential for a syndication deal with Facebook in the coming year. They cover how MLS of Choice is likely to affect the industry, the continuing trend toward the tech-enabled brokerage model, and how NAR’s success in making changes to the tax plan might play out in the 2018 campaign season. Listen in for Rob and Greg’s insight on how the cultural phenomenon that is #MeToo might rock real estate and who will make the biggest splash in the technology space this year.
What’s Discussed:
The tendency among industry players to ‘blame the MLS’
The mystery around RE/MAX’s failure to report Q3 earnings
Facebook’s entry into real estate
The potential for a direct syndication deal with Facebook in 2018
Real estate as the ‘last frontier of disruption’
Greg’s insight around the rise of virtual MLSs
How MLS of Choice could trigger the first ‘hostile takeover’
The likelihood of non-contiguous consolidation activity among MLSs
Rob’s take on how HAR could leverage MLS of Choice
NAR’s big win on Capitol Hill regarding the tax plan
NAR’s increase in political spending in 2018
The trend of brokerages to adopt a tech-enabled model
Mergers and acquisitions in the vendor space
The probability that #MeToo will rock real estate in 2018
Who is apt to make the biggest splash in real estate tech this year
Resources:
Andrea’s Upstream Article in Inman
‘Blame the MLS’ on Vendor Alley
Everybody Wins: The Story and Lessons Behind RE/MAX by Phil Harkins and Keith Hollihan
Mike’s Breakdown of Facebook vs. Zillow
Inman Article on Using Facebook for Lead Gen
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