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Industry Relations

This is Industry Relations, a podcast that is at the intersection of real estate and technology from an insider’s perspective. Hosted weekly by Rob Hahn (The Notorious ROB) and Greg Robertson.
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Now displaying: 2021
Aug 11, 2021

The DOJ pulling out of its antitrust settlement with NAR seems like bad news for the industry.

 

But what if it could be an opportunity?

 

Michael Wurzer is the CEO of FBS, the leading innovator of MLS technology. Prior to FBS, Michael spent seven years practicing law in California and Minnesota, working in corporate law, litigation and serving as Assistant General Counsel for Aveda.

 

On this episode of Industry Relations, Michael shares his unique perspective on the DOJ withdrawal, discussing the Biden administration’s intent to refocus on antitrust principles and the need for smaller, independent businesses to ensure competition in any sector.

 

Michael explains how organized real estate might engage with regulators, describing how MLSs could serve as labs of experimentation to promote transparency and competition in the industry.

 

Listen in to understand the challenge of overcoming what Rob calls the regulatory mindset and find out how real estate can take an offensive posture with the FTC, working together to innovate around Brandeis and Patman’s antitrust ideals.

 

What’s Discussed: 

 

The intent of the Biden administration to refocus on antitrust principles

Why industries need smaller, independent businesses to ensure competition

How the competitive nature of the MLS benefits NAR in negotiating with the DOJ

Why Michael sees an opportunity for the industry to engage with regulators

How MLSs might serve as labs of experimentation to promote transparency and competition

The concerns around Ben Harris’ advocacy for delinking of commissions

How a willingness to experiment would be a good defense for government intervention

Rob’s concern that the regulatory mindset won’t allow for such a nuanced approach

Why Michael doesn’t see NAR or large MLSs as Goliaths to be broken up

 

Connect with Michael:

 

FBS

Michael on Twitter

 

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

 

Resources:

 

FBS Summit

Justice Department Withdraws from Settlement with the National Association of Realtors

Goliath: The 100-Year War Between Monopoly Power and Democracy by Matt Stoller

Chicago School of Economics

‘Amazon’s Antitrust Paradox’ by Lina M. Khan

Robinson-Patman Act

Biden’s Executive Order on Promoting Competition in the American Economy

REX on Industry Relations EP055

‘Anticompetition in Buying and Selling Homes’ by Roger P. Alford and Benjamin H. Harris

Rob’s Post on Ben Harris

Michael’s Presentation on the Expanding MLS

British Columbia’s Shadow Flipping Controversy

 

Our Sponsors: 

 

Cloud Agent Suite

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Jul 30, 2021

The Department of Justice pulled out of its proposed settlement with NAR and President Biden has issued an executive order addressing ‘exclusionary practices’ in real estate. Now, more than ever, NAR will need to exercise its political power to fight off FTC regulations. But how much political pull does the organization really have?

 

On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob explains why he thinks NAR is the weakest it’s ever been politically, discussing how changes to the Code of Ethics harmed the organization’s unity and what that might mean for contributions to RPAC.

 

Greg offers the counterargument that NAR’s record-high membership is a reflection of its political capital, and our hosts explore the concerns professional staff and academics in DC have raised around real estate for the last 20 years.

 

Listen in to understand how the insanity of the 2020 housing market might influence the way the public thinks about real estate and learn what you should be doing to combat potential government regulations or plan for lower commissions moving forward.

 

What’s Discussed: 

 

Why Rob thinks NAR is the weakest it’s ever been politically

Greg’s counterargument that NAR’s record-high membership is a reflection of its political capital

What a conversation between an NAR lobbyist and the chief of staff for a senator might sound like

How changes to the NAR Code of Ethics harmed the organization’s unity (and what that might mean for RPAC contributions)

How NAR’s head lobbyist’s connection to the Trump organization might impact her ability to get the REALTOR agenda through

The concerns professional staff and academics in DC have raised re: real estate for the last 20 years

How the insanity of the 2020 housing market might influence the way the public thinks about real estate

Rob and Greg’s challenge to listeners to engage their membership in conversations around potential regulations

The benefit of contingency planning for lower commissions

 

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

 

Resources:

 

Justice Department Withdraws from Settlement with the National Association of Realtors

Biden’s Executive Order on Promoting Competition in the American Economy

NAR Code of Ethics & Professional Standards Policy Changes

REALTORS Political Action Committee

Phillip Cantrell on The Notorious POD EP017

 

Our Sponsors: 

 

Cloud Agent Suite

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Jul 27, 2021

Early this month, in an unprecedented move, the Department of Justice pulled out of its proposed settlement with NAR. And soon thereafter, President Biden issued an Executive Order on Promoting Competition in the American Economy.

An executive order with a specific clause concerning ‘exclusionary practices in the brokerage or listing of real estate.’ So, what’s going to happen next?

On this episode of Industry Relations, Rob and Greg discuss what Biden’s executive order means for real estate, describing the kind of regulations the FTC might impose on the industry in 2022.

They address the influx of institutional capital in real estate in the last two years, exploring what that could mean for buyer’s agent commissions and why it actually might be good for NAR’s renegotiation with the DOJ.

Listen in for insight on the need for price discrepancy between a good and bad buyer’s agent and get Rob and Greg’s opposing predictions on how the government might change the rules around cooperation and compensation—or not.

 

What’s Discussed: 

How the DOJ reneged on its settlement with NAR and why it’s a big deal

What Biden’s executive order on competition means for real estate

The ideas re: concentration of power behind the Bradeis movement

Why Rob thinks the real estate lobby is at its weakest right now

Greg’s prediction that mortgage banks will step in to keep buyer’s agent commissions the same

The influx of institutional capital in real estate in the last two years (and why that might be good for NAR’s renegotiation)

The number of new business models designed to help consumers buy, sell and finance homes

Rob’s view that institutional investors will support the elimination of buyer’s agent commissions

The lack of price discrepancy between a good and bad buyer’s agent in real estate

Rob’s thought experiment re: whether the rich need buyer’s agents

Rob’s prediction that the FTC will issue proposed regulations for real estate

 

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website 

Resources:

Blockchain and Real Estate on Notorious POD EP022

Propy

Justice Department Withdraws from Settlement with the National Association of Realtors

Rob’s Post on the DOJ Pulling Out of Its Settlement with NAR, Part 1

Rob’s Post on the DOB Pulling Out of Its Settlement with NAR, Part 2

Biden’s Executive Order on Promoting Competition in the American Economy

‘Amazon’s Antitrust Paradox’ by Lina M. Khan

‘BlackRock Is Not Ruining the US Housing Market’ in The Atlantic

Rob’s Response to The Atlantic Article

Knock Home Swap

Orchard

Tomo

Rob’s Post: Do the Rich Need Buyer’s Agents?

 

Our Sponsors: 

Cloud Agent Suite

Notorious VIP

Feb 25, 2021

Zillow has been consumer-centric since its inception in 2006. And in the early days, the tech company didn’t pay much attention to agents. Now Zillow realizes that reducing friction for consumers means helping agents respond to online leads and schedule showings, for example. But is it too late to earn the industry’s trust?

 

Errol Samuelson is the Chief Industry Development Officer at Zillow Group. With 25 years of experience in proptech, he served in leadership roles at Realtor.com, Top Producer Systems and Move, Inc. before joining Zillow in 2014. On this episode of Industry Relations, Errol sits down with Rob and Greg to explain why Zillow is acquiring ShowingTime and explore what’s behind the industry’s volatile reaction to the announcement.

 

Errol discusses the real estate industry’s distrust of Zillow, acknowledging the frustration the tech company has caused over the years and assuring us that his team will not misuse ShowingTime data. Listen in to understand how Errol thinks about CoStar as a competitor and learn why he believes an industry without cooperation and compensation is not good for agents, brokers or consumers.

 

What’s Discussed: 

 

Why the real estate industry went apeshit over Zillow’s acquisition of ShowingTime

Zillow’s assurance that ShowingTime will remain an open platform with a strict privacy policy

What problem Zillow is trying to solve by acquiring ShowingTime

Errol’s insight on the rumor that Zillow bought ShowingTime to keep it out of CoStar’s hands

How Errol thinks about the fact that people assume Zillow is lying

Errol’s acknowledgement of the frustrations Zillow has caused agents over the years and how the company’s behavior may have amplified the industry’s distrust

The possibility that social class and age are a factor in the industry’s mistrust of Zillow

The focus of Zillow’s Q4 earnings call (Zillow Offers vs. streamlining the consumer experience overall)

Why innovation in the lending space is limited by federal regulations

The unique opportunity Zillow has to innovate around ownership models

Errol’s thoughts on CoStar as a competitor and why CoStar’s success hinges on the government putting an end to cooperation and compensation

Connect with Errol:

Errol at Zillow

Errol on LinkedIn

Errol on Twitter

 

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

 

Resources:

Rob’s Post on Zillow, ShowingTime & Paranoid Realtors

Zillow’s Press Release on Acquiring ShowingTime

ShowingTime

Steve Murray at REAL Trends

CoStar News

Greg on Twitter

Zillow’s Q4 2020 Earnings Call

Zillow Offers

Nick Bailey at RE/MAX

Gary Keller’s 2021 Family Reunion Vision Speech Recap

Trulia

Dotloop

Jay Thompson on Inman

Susan Daimler at Zillow

Rob’s 2020 List of the Seven Most Interesting People in Real Estate

Zillow Home Loans

Divvy

Federal Regulations on Mortgage Finance

REA Group

Andrew Florance at CoStar

Rob’s CoStar Red Dot Report

CoStar’s Q4 2020 Earnings Call

Rob’s Interview with Joe Rand

 

Our Sponsors: 

Cloud Agent Suite

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Feb 24, 2021

As the real estate industry has evolved, we’ve been trained to focus on who owns the data. And Zillow’s acquisition of ShowingTime has many concerned about sharing their data with the proptech giant. But what if hoarding your data is not the only way to compete with a company like Zillow? What if it’s not really about access to the data but what you do with it?

Nick Bailey is the Chief Customer Officer at RE/MAX. With nearly 25 years of industry experience, Nick served as an agent, broker and proptech vendor before becoming the head of a major real estate franchise. On this episode of Industry Relations, Nick joins Rob and Greg to share his take on Zillow’s acquisition of ShowingTime and what’s behind the industry’s emotionally-charged reaction.

 

Nick offers insight on how the data Zillow acquired was already publicly available, explaining why that information doesn’t necessarily give the tech company a competitive advantage and reminding us that it’s not unusual for companies at scale to offer various products and services to the industry at large. Listen in for Nick’s perspective on what we can do to improve the process of buying or selling a home for consumers and find out why you shouldn’t panic about Zillow’s acquisition of ShowingTime.

What’s Discussed: 

Nick’s background as an agent, broker, tech vendor and head of a major real estate franchise

Why Nick sees Zillow’s acquisition of ShowingTime as one tech company acquiring another to make the process of buying and selling homes easier for consumers

How ShowingTime’s market share influenced the industry’s emotionally-charged reaction to its acquisition

Nick’s argument that the data Zillow has acquired was already publicly available

How Nick addresses the objection that the ShowingTime acquisition forces agents and brokers to provide Zillow with a competitive advantage

How it’s not unusual for companies at scale to offer various products and services (e.g.: RE/MAX’s acquisition of Motto Mortgage)

What Nick is doing to educate agents around the spirit of cooperation in the industry

How Nick thinks about whether Zillow is a RE/MAX competitor

What the real estate industry can do to improve the fragmented process of buying or selling a home

Nick’s insight on what differentiates RE/MAX in a competitive industry that includes a growing number of iBuyers

The trend toward a greater concentration of power among fewer agents and how that might contribute to the panic around Zillow

Nick’s advice for MLS, franchisor and large brokerage CEOs on using data to identify trends and create contingency plans accordingly

 

Connect with Nick:

 

Nick at RE/MAX

Nick on LinkedIn

 

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

Resources:

ShowingTime’s Press Release on Its Acquisition by Zillow

Nick’s Video on Zillow’s Acquisition of ShowingTime

Market Leader

Rob’s Post on Zillow, ShowingTime & Paranoid Realtors

First App

Steve Murray at REAL Trends

Motto Mortgage

NAR Code of Ethics

We Are RE/MAX on Facebook

Brad Inman’s Piece on Zillow & ShowingTime

Gary Keller’s 2021 Family Reunion Vision Speech Recap

The Art of the CMA: Win Hearts, Minds, and Loyalty by Mastering Real Estate’s Most Versatile Tool by Greg Robertson 

Dave Liniger at RE/MAX

 

Our Sponsors: 

 

Cloud Agent Suite

Notorious VIP

Feb 22, 2021

Zillow’s Economic Research Team just released its forecast for 2021, and they expect it to be the best year for home sales since 2005. In fact, Zillow’s number crunchers believe that a whopping 6.8M existing homes will close next year, marking the biggest one-year gain in sales (nearly 22%!) since the early 1980’s.

 

Jeff Tucker is a Senior Economist at Zillow Research where he studies the causes and consequences of changing supply in the housing market. On this episode of Industry Relations, Jeff joins Rob and Greg to discuss the inputs his team used to make its predictions for 2021 and describe how current growth differs from what we saw at the height of the bubble in 2005.

Jeff offers insight around the demographics of who’s buying and selling homes right now, sharing his take on why the low millennial marriage rate may not impact the housing market as much as we think and how feasible it is for young, working-class Americans to afford homeownership. Listen in to understand how COVID facilitated the single-family home inventory crash and get an economist’s perspective on why the housing market will stay hot through 2021.

What’s Discussed: 

The inputs Jeff’s team used to predict that 6.8M existing homes will close in 2021

How current growth differs from what we saw at the height of the bubble in 2005

The decrease in the share of income spent on mortgages since 2018

Why the iBuyer’s mission to create a frictionless experience is so important moving forward

Jeff’s insight around the demographics of who’s buying and selling homes

The distinction between family and household formation

Why the low millennial marriage rate may or may not impact the housing market

How COVID facilitated a single-family home inventory crash

Why Jeff sees appreciation slowing down by the end of 2021

Jeff’s take on the feasibility of homeownership for working-class millennials

How the skyrocketing US money supply might impact the real estate market

 

Connect with Jeff:

 

Zillow Research

Jeff at Zillow

Jeff on Twitter

 

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

 

Resources:

 

Lone Wolf Technologies

Zillow’s Forecast for 2021

NAR Data on Single Women Home Buyers

Pew Research on Millennials & Marriage

 

Our Sponsors: 

 

Cloud Agent Suite

Notorious VIP

Jan 20, 2021

Not too long ago, REALTORS were unified, often claiming to be neither Democrat nor Republican but members of the REALTOR Party. Today, however, the polarization in our country is reflected in the real estate community. And the recent changes to the NAR Code of Ethics, specifically Standard of Practice 10-5, seem to have pushed us even farther apart. So, how are these changes likely to affect REALTORS in practice? Can we be more inclusive without favoring one political party over another?

 

Laura Farley serves as General Counsel at the Virginia REALTORS Association, and she has more than 10 years of experience handling and supervising professional standards cases. Prior to joining the state association, Laura was an attorney for the Northern Virginia Association of REALTORS. On this episode of Industry Relations, Laura joins Rob and Greg to provide an overview of the three major changes to NAR’s Code of Ethics and offer insight into how those changes might impact real estate professionals now that the professional standards apply to everything a REALTOR does, real estate related or not.

 

Laura explains why NAR’s list of protected classes in Standard of Practice 10-5 is more inclusive than a lot of states and addresses the subjective nature of determining intent as well as the concerns that 10-5 gives some REALTORS more speech rights than others. She also discusses the significance of removing the word ‘willful’ from NAR’s definition of public trust, introducing us to the concept of disparate impact—and why it may or may not apply to Article 10. Listen in for Laura’s insight on how 10-5 has further polarized the REALTOR community and get her take on the best possible outcome around the revised Code of Ethics.

 

What’s Discussed: 

 

Laura’s decade of legal experience with professional standards cases

Laura’s overview of the 3 major changes to the NAR Code of Ethics

Why NAR’s list of protected classes is more inclusive than most state lists

The significance of the word ‘use’ in Standard of Practice 10-5 (REALTORS must not ‘use’ harassing speech, hate speech, epithets or slurs)

The controversy around how 10-5 gives some REALTORS more speech rights than others

The subjective nature of determining an agent’s intent to harm, hurt or harass

How Laura thinks about the concerns of REALTORS on the political right re: implicit bias

The significance of removing the word ‘willful’ from the definition of public trust

The concept of disparate impact and why it may or may not apply to Article 10

How the change to 10-5 has further polarized the REALTOR community

 

Connect with Laura:

 

Virginia REALTORS

Laura at Virginia REALTORS

 

 

Connect with Rob and Greg: 

 

Rob’s Website

Greg’s Website

 

 Resources:

Laura’s Code of Ethics Update Video

Virginia REALTORS Code of Ethics Resources

NAR Code of Ethics Changes

NAR’s Code of Ethics & Standards of Practice

Rob’s Post on an Alternative to the New Speech Code

Virginia REALTORS Diversity & Inclusion PAG

Rob’s Post on Disparate Impact

Norwood v. Harrison

Railway v. Hanson

Jenna Ryan

 

Our Sponsors: 

 

Cloud MLX

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